When was Elizabeth Stride actually killed?

[Fisherman]

Hi Christer.
It is hard to explain the article given what we know, it is easier to list the problems with it being Schwartz/Pipeman, than anything else.
Given the press record for error-prone articles, if anything at all is correct in that article, it must surely be the 'direction of flight'.
If that is the most reliable detail we have to work with then only Diemschitz/Kozebrodski suit this detail.


"Does anybody really know what time it is?"

There can be no certainty, Jon. I do think, however, that a lot more is in favour of it being Schwartz/Pipeman, than a scenario with Diemschitz/Kozebrodski.

The best,
Fisherman

[moonbegger]

Hi Moonbegger.

If this was Schwartz chased by Pipeman, why do you think Pipeman would be shouting "murder?"
Whomever was shouting "murder" must have been someone who had just seen a dead body, don't you think?

Hello Wickerman ,

I didn't think the chasing man was shouting murder , according to the article in question ? also the fact that the article did not mention the shouts of murder from the chasing man must lend itself more to the possibility of it being Schwartz and pipe man !

a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen - or, at least, a man whom some persons regard as the murderer - being chased by another man along Fairclough Street which runs across Berner Street, close to the club,

"Does anybody really know what time it is?"

Indeed .. But 15 mins is a fair chunk of wiggle all the same ..

moonbegger

[Fisherman]

The problem with it being Schwartz is Swanson's report, that they ran as far as the railway arch. There is no railway arch in that direction.
Schwartz ran the opposite way.

On this railway arch business, Jon - I have always thought that the arch spoken of would be down Backchurch Lane, by Pinchin Street.

If this is the one spoken of - and the one you seem to acknowledge - then we must accept that Schwartz took a left turn on Backchurch Lane and ran south.
But what if he ran east on Fairclough, and then took a right turn at Christian or Grove Street - wouldn´t that take him down to the same railway at the approximate same time..?
Were there no arches down that way? Do you know?

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

rocking chair time

Hello Jon. Your post #41 is brilliant. All the data points to a certain--for some, unpalatable--conclusion.

Looks like I may retire.

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Hello Jon. Your post #41 is brilliant. All the data points to a certain--for some, unpalatable--conclusion.

Looks like I may retire.

Cheers.
LC

Did you read post #47

[moonbegger]

One other point regarding ..

the press have already established their unfortunate tendency to publish stories which contain errors.

It was the Police that had Schwartz turning into Berners from Commercial Street ??? if the Police were so on the ball .. surely some free thinking officer would have figured out the interpreter clearly meant Commercial road ... like I mentioned some time back , Its an easy mistake for someone detached from the East End to make , Not so much someone familiar with the area and a little more on the ball so to speak !!

cheers , Moonbegger .

[Fisherman]

Did you read post #47

Of course not. Why spoil the fun?

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Hello Jon. Your post #41 is brilliant. All the data points to a certain--for some, unpalatable--conclusion.

Looks like I may retire.

Cheers.
LC

Well I'll be damned if I can see it, unpalatable or not. What conclusion can we reach?

c.d.

[c.d.]

Again, let me point out that even if you have access to an accurate watch or clock, you have to be looking at the damn thing to know what time it is. The watch or clock by itself won't help you.

c.d.

[GUT]

G'day cd

Again, let me point out that even if you have access to an accurate watch or clock, you have to be looking at the damn thing to know what time it is. The watch or clock by itself won't help you.

Spot on, but I would add that at a time and place when many dd not have watches most times stated can only be approximate, because even if every church clock was set dead on you had to be in sight of it.

I have a clock that chimes the 1/4 so I always have an idea of roughly what the time is, though sometimes find that I am out by an hour, I strongly suspect it was the same wth these reports.

[c.d.]

Not to beat a dead horse here but were people in 1888 as obsessed with time as we are today? In other words, did they really feel a need to know what time it was on a constant basis?

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Hello Wickerman,

"Some time ago I came across an article describing how the clocks of London were periodically reset from Greenwich."

You would happen to have a source handy for that? I currently doing some research into Victorian timekeeping and source seem pretty scarce.

I'll keep my eye open for it. The topic came up a couple of weeks ago, I looked for it then, to no avail. I seem to recall I may have been reading Fishmans, East End 1888, at the time. Whether it is in there, or mentioned in one of the books listed in his bibliography, I couldn't say at the moment.

[Wickerman]

On this railway arch business, Jon - I have always thought that the arch spoken of would be down Backchurch Lane, by Pinchin Street.

If this is the one spoken of - and the one you seem to acknowledge - then we must accept that Schwartz took a left turn on Backchurch Lane and ran south.
But what if he ran east on Fairclough, and then took a right turn at Christian or Grove Street - wouldn´t that take him down to the same railway at the approximate same time..?
Were there no arches down that way? Do you know?

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Christer.

Here, circled in red, are all the railway arches I have been able to identify.



The problem I see with Schwartz running east towards Grove, then south is, he is running away from his home.

This is his last named address & conventional direction of flight.

Hello Jon. Your post #41 is brilliant. All the data points to a certain--for some, unpalatable--conclusion.

Looks like I may retire.

Cheers.
LC

You're such a gentleman Lynn, except scratch the "shouting murder", Moonbegger is correct, I can't imagine where I got that from, sorry.

[Wickerman]

One other point regarding ..

It was the Police that had Schwartz turning into Berners from Commercial Street ??? if the Police were so on the ball .. surely some free thinking officer would have figured out the interpreter clearly meant Commercial road ... like I mentioned some time back , Its an easy mistake for someone detached from the East End to make , Not so much someone familiar with the area and a little more on the ball so to speak !!

cheers , Moonbegger .

Hi Moonbegger.
What are you referring to?

This is the intro to Swanson's 19th Oct. report on the subject...

12.45 a.m. 30th Israel Schwartz of 22 Ellen street, Backchurch Lane stated that at that hour on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & had got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.....

Looks fine to me

[Dr. John Watson]

Louis Diemschutz was quite certain that he returned to Dutfield's Yard at exactly 1:00 a.m. He based this on the time shown on a tobacconist's clock in Commercial Road. If he's correct about the time, then Liz died at or about 12:58 a.m., and her killer was about to finish the job when he heard the sound of Diemschutz's cart approaching. As Diemschutz pulled into the yard, the killer crouched against the side of the building or perhaps against the open gate, hidden in the darkness. Diemschutz's pony shied to the left, but it wasn't Stride's dead body on the ground that spooked him; it was the very live body of the killer he sensed and was trying to avoid. As soon as Diemschutz entered the club, the killer exited the yard and quickly escaped down Fairclough Street in the general direction of Mitre Square.

At least that's the way I've always imagined it.

John