When was Elizabeth Stride actually killed?

[moonbegger]

Hi Moonbegger.
What are you referring to?

This is the intro to Swanson's 19th Oct. report on the subject...

12.45 a.m. 30th Israel Schwartz of 22 Ellen street, Backchurch Lane stated that at that hour on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & had got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.....

Looks fine to me

??? So when did the original report Switch from Commercial Street on the 30th sept ?

12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour, on turning into Berner Street from Commercial Street and having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed,

moonbegger

[Ginger]

Not to beat a dead horse here but were people in 1888 as obsessed with time as we are today? In other words, did they really feel a need to know what time it was on a constant basis?

I don't think they were, no, at least not in the East End. Most of the poor didn't carry watches, and it was a common and expected thing for the local policeman to "knock you up" of a morning so you'd be ready for work on time. They (fortunate people!) didn't have radio and television shows around which to schedule their lives either.

Among the middle class, in the city at least, I think a more or less constant awareness of time was becoming the expected way of life, what with railway and trolley timetables, and the emerging need to coordinate the efforts of large numbers of business functionaries and workers toward common goals. None of that self-discipline had really drifted down into the poorer classes yet, apart from the need to show up to work at a set time.

[lynn cates]

reference

Hello Jon. Thanks.

The shout was my primary reference.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

nitey

Hello CD. Thanks.

"Well I'll be damned if I can see it, unpalatable or not. What conclusion can we reach?"

That it's time to go for some more sleep?

Cheers.
LC

[Dr. John Watson]

Louis Diemschutz was quite certain that he returned to Dutfield's Yard at exactly 1:00 a.m. He based this on the time shown on a tobacconist's clock in Commercial Road. If he's correct about the time, then Liz died at or about 12:58 a.m., and her killer was about to finish the job when he heard the sound of Diemschutz's cart approaching. As Diemschutz pulled into the yard, the killer crouched against the side of the building or perhaps against the open gate, hidden in the darkness. Diemschutz's pony shied to the left, but it wasn't Stride's dead body on the ground that spooked him; it was the very live body of the killer he sensed and was trying to avoid. As soon as Diemschutz entered the club, the killer exited the yard and quickly escaped down Fairclough Street in the general direction of Mitre Square.

At least that's the way I've always imagined it.

John

[Wickerman]

One other point regarding ..

It was the Police that had Schwartz turning into Berners from Commercial Street ??? if the Police were so on the ball .. surely some free thinking officer would have figured out the interpreter clearly meant Commercial road ... like I mentioned some time back , Its an easy mistake for someone detached from the East End to make , Not so much someone familiar with the area and a little more on the ball so to speak !!

cheers , Moonbegger .

Hi Moonbegger.
What are you referring to?

This is the intro to Swanson's 19th Oct. report on the subject...

12.45 a.m. 30th Israel Schwartz of 22 Ellen street, Backchurch Lane stated that at that hour on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & had got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.....

Looks fine to me

[Wickerman]

On this railway arch business, Jon - I have always thought that the arch spoken of would be down Backchurch Lane, by Pinchin Street.

If this is the one spoken of - and the one you seem to acknowledge - then we must accept that Schwartz took a left turn on Backchurch Lane and ran south.
But what if he ran east on Fairclough, and then took a right turn at Christian or Grove Street - wouldn´t that take him down to the same railway at the approximate same time..?
Were there no arches down that way? Do you know?

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Christer.

Here, circled in red, are all the railway arches I have been able to identify.



The problem I see with Schwartz running east towards Grove, then south is, he is running away from his home.

This is his last named address & conventional direction of flight.

Hello Jon. Your post #41 is brilliant. All the data points to a certain--for some, unpalatable--conclusion.

Looks like I may retire.

Cheers.
LC

You're such a gentleman Lynn, except scratch the "shouting murder", Moonbegger is correct, I can't imagine where I got that from, sorry.

[Wickerman]

Hello Wickerman,

"Some time ago I came across an article describing how the clocks of London were periodically reset from Greenwich."

You would happen to have a source handy for that? I currently doing some research into Victorian timekeeping and source seem pretty scarce.

I'll keep my eye open for it. The topic came up a couple of weeks ago, I looked for it then, to no avail. I seem to recall I may have been reading Fishmans, East End 1888, at the time. Whether it is in there, or mentioned in one of the books listed in his bibliography, I couldn't say at the moment.

[c.d.]

Not to beat a dead horse here but were people in 1888 as obsessed with time as we are today? In other words, did they really feel a need to know what time it was on a constant basis?

c.d.

[GUT]

G'day cd

Again, let me point out that even if you have access to an accurate watch or clock, you have to be looking at the damn thing to know what time it is. The watch or clock by itself won't help you.

Spot on, but I would add that at a time and place when many dd not have watches most times stated can only be approximate, because even if every church clock was set dead on you had to be in sight of it.

I have a clock that chimes the 1/4 so I always have an idea of roughly what the time is, though sometimes find that I am out by an hour, I strongly suspect it was the same wth these reports.

[c.d.]

Again, let me point out that even if you have access to an accurate watch or clock, you have to be looking at the damn thing to know what time it is. The watch or clock by itself won't help you.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Jon. Your post #41 is brilliant. All the data points to a certain--for some, unpalatable--conclusion.

Looks like I may retire.

Cheers.
LC

Well I'll be damned if I can see it, unpalatable or not. What conclusion can we reach?

c.d.

[Fisherman]

Did you read post #47

Of course not. Why spoil the fun?

The best,
Fisherman

[moonbegger]

One other point regarding ..

the press have already established their unfortunate tendency to publish stories which contain errors.

It was the Police that had Schwartz turning into Berners from Commercial Street ??? if the Police were so on the ball .. surely some free thinking officer would have figured out the interpreter clearly meant Commercial road ... like I mentioned some time back , Its an easy mistake for someone detached from the East End to make , Not so much someone familiar with the area and a little more on the ball so to speak !!

cheers , Moonbegger .

[moonbegger]

Hello Jon. Your post #41 is brilliant. All the data points to a certain--for some, unpalatable--conclusion.

Looks like I may retire.

Cheers.
LC

Did you read post #47