When was Elizabeth Stride actually killed?

[lynn cates]

Confess, infidel!

Hello PM.

"Could Mr Schwartz have simply made this story up?"

Heretic. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Could Mr Schwartz have simply made this story up?He would have known by giving a statement to the police he would come to the attention of journalists who could quite possibly offer some financial reward for his story.

I normally think that if Schwartz had made his story up, then why would he award himself the coward´s role? This man fled from a place where a woman was subsequently murdered.
On that note, I also entertain the possibility that Schwartz swopped Pipeman´s pipe for a knife when he spoke to the Star, thus providing himself with a good reason for having fled.

The best,
Fisherman

[Observer]

I bet our good friend, Michael Richards is out buying a stopwatch and will be up all night compiling an Excel spreadsheet.

Just messin' with you, Michael.

c.d.

Hi c.d.

Old Mike has already employed the use of an atomic clock to determine the exact timings of all witnesses involved in the Liz Stride case. I believe he has the TOD as 12:44 and 800,176,752,715 nanoseconds a.m. I don't reckon he's far out, I'd plump for a couple of nanoseconds either way.

Regards

Observer

[pinkmoon]

Could Mr Schwartz have simply made this story up?He would have known by giving a statement to the police he would come to the attention of journalists who could quite possibly offer some financial reward for his story.

[Fisherman]

Because this is obviously repeated second hand, it seems like a garbled account of someone watching Diemschitz & Kozebrodski run across Fairclough St. Whoever saw this must have assumed one was chasing the other, in actual fact they were together.

"I ran off at once for the police. I could not find a constable in the direction which I took, so I shouted out "Police!" as loudly as I could."
Diemschitz.

"I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers."
Kozebrodski.

But the secretary of the club, remember, claimed that the chasing man was not a member of the club.
If you are correct, then botch the chaser and the chased man WERE club members. Why did the secretary fail to recognize one man and falsely claim that the other was not a club member?

And would he not hear Diemschitz yelling for the police?

It does not pan out, does it?

The best, Jon!
Fisherman

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Time.

About 12:51. There I said it. Deal with it.

[Wickerman]

"The club itself, which is next door to the large gate, was yesterday closed; but all the forenoon members and others who have special business there were admitted after knocking at the door. The committee of the institution held a meeting yesterday morning, at which the crime was talked over, and it was decided not to admit any stranger without the payment of a fee. This fee, the secretary explained, was to assist the propaganda. The committee, it seems, did not fix the amount to be charged, but, in reply to a question, the secretary said he thought 5s. would not be too much. In the course of conversation the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had, no doubt, been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen - or, at least, a man whom some persons regard as the murderer - being chased by another man along Fairclough Street which runs across Berner Street, close to the club, and which is interesected on the right by Providence Street, Brunswick Street, and Christian Street, and on the left by Batty Street and Grove Street, the two latter running up into Commercial Road. The pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body."

To me, this has always very much sounded like a description of Schwartz fleeing down Fairclough Street, Pipeman hot on his heels. The scenery has mistakenly been interpreted as the murderer being chased, while it fact would have been Schwartz.

Because this is obviously repeated second hand, it seems like a garbled account of someone watching Diemschitz & Kozebrodski run across Fairclough St. Whoever saw this must have assumed one was chasing the other, in actual fact they were together.

"I ran off at once for the police. I could not find a constable in the direction which I took, so I shouted out "Police!" as loudly as I could."
Diemschitz.

"I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers."
Kozebrodski.

[c.d.]

I bet our good friend, Michael Richards is out buying a stopwatch and will be up all night compiling an Excel spreadsheet.

Just messin' with you, Michael.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

1888

[Cogidubnus]

Fair point Colin!

All the best

Dave

[Bridewell]

T

To me, this has always very much sounded like a description of Schwartz fleeing down Fairclough Street, Pipeman hot on his heels. The scenery has mistakenly been interpreted as the murderer being chased, while in fact it would have been Schwartz.

Or both if Schwartz was the murderer? Given that his account is out of kilter with that of the other witnesses, and that he ran from the scene of one of the murders, I've often wondered why he seems never to have been under serious consideration as a suspect.

[moonbegger]

and the secretary of the club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body."

So he was known , but just not remembered ?? Corroboration and conspiracy all in one post , gotta love that

moonbegger ..

[Ben]

The pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body.

This bit's interesting, especially if the pursuer was "Pipeman", as it would imply that his name was taken at some point, perhaps at the club as a visitor, even if he wasn't a regular there.

[Scott Nelson]

Now that's a good observation, Christer. Thanks.

[Fisherman]

As will be noted, the Blackwell estimation seemingly allows for the Schwartz scenario.
To this discussion belongs that snippet from The Scotsman of October 2, actually fleshing out on an article from the Echo the day before:

"The club itself, which is next door to the large gate, was yesterday closed; but all the forenoon members and others who have special business there were admitted after knocking at the door. The committee of the institution held a meeting yesterday morning, at which the crime was talked over, and it was decided not to admit any stranger without the payment of a fee. This fee, the secretary explained, was to assist the propaganda. The committee, it seems, did not fix the amount to be charged, but, in reply to a question, the secretary said he thought 5s. would not be too much. In the course of conversation the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had, no doubt, been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen - or, at least, a man whom some persons regard as the murderer - being chased by another man along Fairclough Street which runs across Berner Street, close to the club, and which is interesected on the right by Providence Street, Brunswick Street, and Christian Street, and on the left by Batty Street and Grove Street, the two latter running up into Commercial Road. The pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body."

To me, this has always very much sounded like a description of Schwartz fleeing down Fairclough Street, Pipeman hot on his heels. The scenery has mistakenly been interpreted as the murderer being chased, while it fact would have been Schwartz.

I believe it is the closest thing to a corroboration of the Schwartz story we have.

The best,
Fisherman