Who Killed Stride?

[Ms Diddles]

I'm sitting on the fence too and my opinion on this changes on any given day!

On balance I'm probably dangling my legs over the Ripper side along with Dusty.

The crazy amount of risk involved is in my view consistent with the other murders.

The sheer coincidence of two prostitutes found in relatively close proximity with their throats cut, a mere 45 minutes apart nudges me in that direction too.

I think it's the same guy, but I'm not married to that notion.

[erobitha]

"It's simple: He was interrupted."

Hmm. Im going to try a new tact dealing with this particular "belief" that many share.

So, Erobitha, what are the characteristics present in the crime scene evidence of Liz Strides murder that suggest the killer was interrupted? What evidence is there to support your simple solution?

(hint: Something significant not being present isnt a viable argument for Jack the Ripper, in fact its the opposite.)

Sorry Michael, I simply do not understand your point you are trying to make.

If there was a murderer who had a fairly unique way of killing people, let’s say with a stun gun to the temple. The killer then likes to engage in post mortem mutilation for his own fascination and enjoyment.

However one victim was killed by said method but no mutilation and then an hour later the same method is applied to a different victim, stun gun to the temple. this time mutilation occurs. Would you genuinely believe these were two separate killers?

[c.d.]

I actually agree with you here, Michael. Oh my God, did I actually say that? If Erobitha is making the claim of interruption then he needs to support that claim with evidence. My guess is that he simply misspoke but we shall see.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The problem is that interruption could have taken place without evidence for it being present. If the killer cut her throat and she fell to the ground and at that point he was disturbed then we would have no evidence of interruption. He could have heard something as the knife was going across. It doesn’t mean that he was interrupted though of course. And it certainly doesn’t mean that Louis must have been the source of the interruption.

[c.d.]

The problem is that interruption could have taken place without evidence for it being present. If the killer cut her throat and she fell to the ground and at that point he was disturbed then we would have no evidence of interruption. He could have heard something as the knife was going across. It doesn’t mean that he was interrupted though of course. And it certainly doesn’t mean that Louis must have been the source of the interruption.

And while it can't be proven, I don't find the idea of interruption unreasonable since we see it in all kinds of crimes. Very commonplace. It is also based on the assumption that Jack was not stark raving mad and was aware that in all likelihood he would be hanged if caught.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

I'm sitting on the fence too and my opinion on this changes on any given day!

On balance I'm probably dangling my legs over the Ripper side along with Dusty.

The crazy amount of risk involved is in my view consistent with the other murders.

The sheer coincidence of two prostitutes found in relatively close proximity with their throats cut, a mere 45 minutes apart nudges me in that direction too.

I think it's the same guy, but I'm not married to that notion.

Hi Ms Diddles,

1. The risk on Berner Street exists only to someone who planned on being in the womans company after the throat cut. And this person could have just gone back indoors after cutting her. He didnt leave via the gates, at least that much is clear.
2. One had their throat cut once, one had no mutilations beyond that single cut, we cannot be sure if one or both was soliciting at all that night, one was a City kill...the only city kill. One had crime scene evidence taken and left below a chalk message, one had nothing taken. One was killed where 30 some odd people were just feet away, one was killed in near darkness with no-one near the scene other than some sleeping Square tenants and nightwatchmen. One had organs taken from the scene, one was not "opened" at all.

The thing I focus on with potential Jack the Ripper kills is some indicator that whomever you are assessing, they share multiple facets with Annie Chapmans killer. She WAS soliicting at the time, so was Polly. Ignore these things at your own peril, I think.

[erobitha]

The problem is that interruption could have taken place without evidence for it being present. If the killer cut her throat and she fell to the ground and at that point he was disturbed then we would have no evidence of interruption. He could have heard something as the knife was going across. It doesn’t mean that he was interrupted though of course. And it certainly doesn’t mean that Louis must have been the source of the interruption.

This is the issue in a nutshell. However, we can reasonably deduce that all the other factors make it the same killer, such as his trademark slitting of the carotid artery. And a definite Ripper murder an hour later.

The most likely scenario is that he was interrupted. I'm open to other possibilities as to why he didn't commit mutilation, but it's just not plausible that it was a different killer altogether.

[Michael W Richards]

The problem is that interruption could have taken place without evidence for it being present. If the killer cut her throat and she fell to the ground and at that point he was disturbed then we would have no evidence of interruption. He could have heard something as the knife was going across. It doesn’t mean that he was interrupted though of course. And it certainly doesn’t mean that Louis must have been the source of the interruption.

The only thing that might constitute evidence of an interruption would be partial or incomplete actions being present. Those actions might relate to some seen in prior Ripper kills, for example the victim being placed on her back, her skirt being lifted, etc. Another might be an incision on her abdomen,..doesnt have to be long, just present...another could be evidence she was moved from the position she fell in, which isnt what the evidence here suggests.

And to your last line, if you continue to believe Louis arrived at 1, then its almost impossible to assert an interruption by him. If he arrived before then....ahh...then thats different.

[Michael W Richards]

[QUOTE=c.d.;n834198]I actually agree with you here, Michael. Oh my God, did I actually say that?

Just try and get some rest. Maybe a small whiskey. This feeling of imbalance will wear off, likely when you disagree with me on your next post...so dont worry. I doubt youve had my koolaid.

[Michael W Richards]

This is the issue in a nutshell. However, we can reasonably deduce that all the other factors make it the same killer, such as his trademark slitting of the carotid artery. And a definite Ripper murder an hour later.

The most likely scenario is that he was interrupted. I'm open to other possibilities as to why he didn't commit mutilation, but it's just not plausible that it was a different killer altogether.

Well then, I guess this topic is a wrap. If just guessing constitutes a solution in Ripperspeak. I asked for proof of this suspected interruption. Any forthcoming?

Ill save you that post....there is none. There are just guesses and some are content with those.

[c.d.]

If just guessing constitutes a solution in Ripperspeak.

You mean like simply guessing why Schwartz wasn't at the inquest?

Looks like the nap and whiskey did me good. Back to my old self again.

c.d.

[Robert St Devil]

My sixpence worth…

Environmental conditions may have played a large part in the interruption.
Lighting conditions in Buck Row were low visibility; Cross thought Polly Nichols was a bundled up wrap of tarpaulin at first glance; neither Cross or Paul could determine if a woman (who was lying on the pavement with a cut throat btw) was dead; the PC had to turn his bulls-eye lantern on her body before he saw the flow of blood. In Dutfield Yard, it was so dark in that passageway that Diemschutz only knew a body was present because his pony shied AND EVEN THEN he had to light a match to determine that it was a woman. Neither locations provided sufficient lighting for Jack the Ripper’s true intention - organ-harvesting - as did Hanbury St at daybreak, or the better-lit Mitre Square, or the raging fireplace of No. 13 Millers Court.

** in the case of Polly Nicholls, i have adopted the brilliant suggestion of another Casebook member, that it was Polly Nicholls’ stays thought got in the way AND that Jack the Ripper cut around it.


To the subject of the thread:

Yes Elizabeth Stride was a victim of Jack the Ripper. At the scene of her murder, there is the aspect of stealth, silence & complete control by her murderer; his M.O. was such that none of the nearby occupants were roused or alerted. Elizabeth Stride was strangled AS was Annie Chapman [in addition to the evidence of asphyxiation apparent on Polly Nicholls’ face]. At the inquest, Dr. Phillips noted the similarity of bluish discoloration over her shoulders as he had seen in two other instances [Annie Chapman being one]. Jack the Ripper removed her bonnet and laid it beside Elizabeth SIMILAR TO what he had done with Polly Nicholls. There’s indication that he cut her throat with her facing away from him SO AS NOT to get blood upon himself. And, Jack the Ripper leaves the scene of the crime in a shroud of complete mystery - no bloody footprints leading away from the murder, no handprint smudged against the wall, no loss of a personal item accidentally left behind,…


As an aside:
HERLOCK i am thinking that Polly Nicholls was taking Jack the Ripper to Browns Stableyard (sorry, don’t remember the name precisely)… maybe it was a serviceable location where she had taken johns before… HOWEVER on this particular night, the gates had been locked (can’t remember if it was because they had been recently painted) AND SO Jack the Ripper improvised and murdered her in the spot. If the gates had been unlocked or open that night, it may very well have been the same circumstances as Dutfield Yard

[Herlock Sholmes]

The only thing that might constitute evidence of an interruption would be partial or incomplete actions being present. Those actions might relate to some seen in prior Ripper kills, for example the victim being placed on her back, her skirt being lifted, etc. Another might be an incision on her abdomen,..doesnt have to be long, just present...another could be evidence she was moved from the position she fell in, which isnt what the evidence here suggests.

And to your last line, if you continue to believe Louis arrived at 1, then its almost impossible to assert an interruption by him. If he arrived before then....ahh...then thats different.

Ill also add a comment that you made to Erobitha:

. Well then, I guess this topic is a wrap. If just guessing constitutes a solution in Ripperspeak. I asked for proof of this suspected interruption. Any forthcoming?

Ill save you that post....there is none. There are just guesses and some are content with those

You make the same error whenever this topic is discussed. The points that you make about signs of an interruption are just things that might have been present at an interrupted murder. But it’s never been about what might have been there it’s about anything the must have been there. Your incorrect claim has been that if there was an interruption then there would have had to have been signs of that interruption present. Clearly though an interruption could have occurred immediately after the cut or even during the cutting process which would have meant that the killer hadn’t time to move onto the next part of his intended actions. Therefore no sign of interruption would have been present.

It is an absolute fact that we cannot prove interruption.

Its also an absolute fact that we cannot disprove interruption.

You wish to skew this one way to support your theory. Which can be the only explanation as to why you don’t appear to understand the difference.

[Sam Flynn]

What bugs me about the interruption theory is that surely the man who'd near-decapitated his other victims, whom we know used a very sharp knife, would have inflicted a more "thorough" wound on Stride. It only takes a second or so to slash a throat, and JTR already had experience of doing so – to devastating effect – at least twice.

[Robert St Devil]

What bugs me about the interruption theory is that surely the man who'd near-decapitated his other victims, whom we know used a very sharp knife, would have inflicted a more "thorough" wound on Stride. It only takes a second or so to slash a throat, and JTR already had experience of doing so – to devastating effect – at least twice.

But didn’t Jack the Ripper cut at Polly Nichols and Annie Chapman’s throats twice?