Who Killed Stride?

[Fiver]

Hi Ms Diddles,

1. The risk on Berner Street exists only to someone who planned on being in the womans company after the throat cut. And this person could have just gone back indoors after cutting her. He didnt leave via the gates, at least that much is clear.
2. One had their throat cut once, one had no mutilations beyond that single cut, we cannot be sure if one or both was soliciting at all that night, one was a City kill...the only city kill. One had crime scene evidence taken and left below a chalk message, one had nothing taken. One was killed where 30 some odd people were just feet away, one was killed in near darkness with no-one near the scene other than some sleeping Square tenants and nightwatchmen. One had organs taken from the scene, one was not "opened" at all.

The thing I focus on with potential Jack the Ripper kills is some indicator that whomever you are assessing, they share multiple facets with Annie Chapmans killer. She WAS soliicting at the time, so was Polly. Ignore these things at your own peril, I think.

These differences actually make a good case for Stride being the victim of an interrupted Ripper. Mitre Square was less dark and didn't have nearly 30 people nearby. With more time, more light, and less chance of interruption, there were opportunities for mutilation and trophy taking that did not exist at Dutfield's Yard.

[c.d.]

What bugs me about the interruption theory is that surely the man who'd near-decapitated his other victims, whom we know used a very sharp knife, would have inflicted a more "thorough" wound on Stride. It only takes a second or so to slash a throat, and JTR already had experience of doing so – to devastating effect – at least twice.

Hello Sam,

But that begs the question, if it was Jack, what was his intention? Was it to kill Stride or to exactly duplicate his previous cuts? If the former he certainly succeeded did he not?

And then the question becomes could there be any reason why this cut did not match previous ones? Perhaps Stride struggled more than the other victims and he could not get a good angle. Maybe her scarf got in the way or she somehow partially blocked the cut with her arm. Or maybe he had been drinking or the knife slipped. Too many variable for me to give the cut differences much weight.

c.d.

[JeffHamm]

Like most people, I'm unsure about Stride as a victim of JtR. Herlock has done a good job of pointing out the differences between the descriptions of men seen with Stride, and Eddowes, given the unreliability of eye-witness descriptions, it is hard to evaluate how significant those differences are. For example, setting aside parcel man for the moment, and comparing the two sightings of the men last seen before the victim was found, ages are the same (both estimated to be 30), both have fair complexions, both have hats and mustaches, and the estimated heights are within 2 or 3 inches of each other (so within 5 to 7.6 cm).

I've pointed out how research shows how rubbish we are at estimating time durations. When an eyewitness describes "age", "body type; or weight let's say" and "height", they are not presenting actual measurements but estimations. So the quality of that information is related to how good we are at it - and like time durations, we're rubbish.

I've got a paper from 2008 by Lindsey et al, where they looked at how accurate people were at identifying someone's age, weight, and height, and also what influence distance would have on those estimations. I won't go into the distance part of it (it's just finer detail, but not really critical to the point I'm making). They collected data from over 1000 people, so the data should be pretty reliable in terms of estimating how reliable we should view a witness estimate of age, weight, and height.

Note, the percentages are "running totals", so if you get the age within 2 years, you've also got it within 5 and 10 years.

The percentage of people who correctly identified the age to:
within 2 years: 30.3%
within 5 years: 44.3%
within 10 years: 46.1%

The percentage of people who correctly identified the height to:
within 2 cm: 15.5%
within 5 cm: 38.9%
within 10 cm: 67.8%

The percentage of people who correctly identified the weight to:
within 2 kg: 21.1%
within 5 kg: 44.8%
within 10 kg: 68.4%

With respect to height, only 67.8% of people estimate a person's height to within 10 cm (3.9 inches). So if both men were, for example, 5'6", then having one witness estimating the height at 5'5" and another at 5'8" would hardly be surprising. In fact, given enough witnesses, we would expect the estimated heights to vary quite a bit more than that.

The same applies to weight, which I'm using as a substitute for the more descriptive words the witnesses gave (particularly the "broad shouldered" type thing) - basically an estimate of "body size". We're as bad at that as with height (we're even worse with age). I know I have a paper somewhere, but I can't locate it just now, that also looked at witness's use of descriptives rather than estimating the measured value (i.e. tall and short rather than give an estimate of height), and what that paper showed was that there was pretty much no relationship between the descriptive and the measurement value! So someone who is 5'10" might be called short or tall, etc. I'm sure for extreme conditions that breaks down (i.e. someone who was 7'2" isn't going to be called short), but they would have been focusing on the descriptions of people within a fairly typical range (as we are dealing with).

Given how bad we're at it, while I see the differences in what the witnesses said, I can't say I see these as indicating the person they saw has to be a different person (doesn't mean they are the same person, but it doesn't mean they aren't either).

And a salt and pepper jacket is speckled, both black and white, so depending upon the lighting situation, it could range between appearing black to light greyish. What is also interesting is that where Schwartz says the hat and coat were both black (so matched), Lawende says both a "salt-pepper or grey", so both also describe someone wearing matching hat and coat. When looking at the adjectives (dark, fair, etc), comparing Schwartz and Lawende's description, the difference tends to be that Lawende describes everything as being slightly "lighter" than Schwartz does. This could very well reflect a difference in the individual witness's idea of what constitutes dark and what is light (or reflect the difference in the lighting conditions, as I think Eddowes and her man might have been standing under a light, while Stride and her man were in a less lit up location - but I could be wrong on that).

The only major point of difference is the presence/absence of the red neckerchief, but that's hardly a deal breaker - witnesses don't see everything (unless they are Hutchinson of course ).

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the above indicates Schwartz and Lawende must have seen the same person! I'm not saying that at all. All I'm saying is that their descriptions are similar enough that I cannot exclude the possibility they saw the same person. Clearly, given the fairly generic descriptions, those could also easily be two different people.

The bit of information we have that makes we wonder, though, is the medical description of the throat wounds. In both Stride and Eddowes case the wound doesn't sever both sides, but is much deeper on the left than the right. In many ways, Eddowes' wound is almost a carbon copy (but slightly deeper) version of Stride's wound. It begins and ends in similar locations, and it follows a similar path over the throat, and so forth. That strikes me as the same person could have made both wounds - they're doing the same thing.

However, one knife wound is hardly sufficient to draw a firm conclusion. I think that bit of evidence points to same offender, but it only points in suggestion. What would help is getting some idea as to how common throat wounds like those described as inflicted on Stride and Eddowes are in such murders (not the JtR, but just murder by throat cutting in general). If the wound descriptions just reflect a very common pattern, then the similarity is meaningless, but if throat cutting wounds show a large amount of variation such that randomly comparing two such murders is unlikely to have so many points in common, then the similarity holds more weight. My problem is, I don't know which of those is the case!

So, I sit on the fence, one foot firmly on each side of the fence. I have questions, but no answers.

- Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

Hello CD

But that begs the question, if it was Jack, what was his intention? Was it to kill Stride or to exactly duplicate his previous cuts?

I wouldn't say that he particularly wanted to duplicate what he'd done previously but, given the nature of the throat wounds inflicted on Nichols and Chapman, and would go on to inflict similarly severe cuts on the throats of Eddowes and Kelly, Stride's wound seems almost amateurish in comparison. Surely JTR would have done a "better" job.

[FrankO]

The method of murder is the same as the one committed 45 minutes later. Left carotid artery severance. Post-mortem mutilation was his thing, but it was not how he killed them, was it? A copycat who got lucky doing the same method as the Ripper within an hour. Jeff, do you have the probability odds on that?

Schwartz is the issue, as far as I'm concerned, not whether Stride was a victim. She clearly was, in my view. It's simple: He was interrupted.

Throat cutting of women on the street was rare enough at that time, let two women succumb to the exact method of murder within an hour of each other.

Hi Erobiha,

The method of murder was the same in the sense that a carotid artery was cut, but the way I see it, not the way in which he attacked. In the other cases, he somehow rendered them senseless first, then lowered them to the ground, where they lay on their backs, then cut their throats and then he went on to mutilate them. In Stride’s case, it very much seems that he grabbed her by the scarf from behind, then pulled her backwards and cut her throat after that, very likely when she was already on the ground on her side.

Then, what I also take into consideration is that the Ripper, apparently, didn’t give himself away until it was too late for his victims. That would mean that he could have aborted his mission at any time before he would actually launch his initial attack. If he did kill Stride, then he also deviated on that point.

The fact that Stride was found on her side and not on her back with her skirts thrown up and the notion that the whole attack on her wouldn’t have taken more than a handful of seconds, tells me that she was killed when Diemshutz on his cart was already quite close to the yard when that happened, mayby just passing Fanny’s house at that point.

If it was the Ripper who killed her, then he was either spooked by Diemshutz or someone/something else the moment he had just cut her throat. Or else he would have continued with laying her on her back, then move her dress upwards, and so on. Or, of course, he decided to kill her anyway, even though he heard the approaching cart. I can see that happen if he was just too set on killing another woman. Or he had never planned to mutilate her to begin with.

The best,
Frank

[JeffHamm]

Hi,

A few years ago I had gone through the medical testimony with regards to the throat wounds inflicted on Nichols, Chapman, Stride, and Eddowes. The primary question I had then was, as per this thread, with regards to Stride's inclusion in the JtR series. After looking through things, I felt the Stride and Eddowes throat wounds sounded very similar. I mentioned that above but didn't go through my reasons behind my opinion. I see that years ago, as now, I was left with the question of whether the similarities were indicative of a common hand, or whether such similarities could easily be found between any two throat cut murders (similar to the issue with regards to the similarities noted between witness descriptions - they seem similar enough to be within the expected range of accuracy for such descriptions that they could describe the same person, but on the other hand, the descriptions are so generic they could also arise if the two suspects are different people - they are similar by chance).

Anyway, because this may be worth considering, I thought I would post what I had written up years ago. I think I posted this on Casebook at that time, but as it is directly related to this thread's topic, and as I alluded to it above, I thought I would post it again.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Nichols:
Testimony of Mr. Henry Llewellyn, surgeon, of 152, Whitechapel-road
“On the left side of the neck, about 1in. below the jaw, there was an incision about 4in. in length, and ran from a point immediately below the ear. On the same side, but an inch below, and commencing about 1in. in front of it, was a circular incision, which terminated at a point about 3in. below the right jaw. That incision completely severed all the tissues down to the vertebrae. The large vessels of the neck on both sides were severed. The incision was about 8in. in length.” (Evans and Skinner, 2000; pg 35).

Chapman:
Testimony of Mr. George Bagster Phillips, divisional surgeon of police, 2, Spital-square
“He noticed that the throat was dissevered deeply; that the incisions through the skin were jagged, and reached right round the neck.” (Evans and Skinner, 2000; pg 86).
“There were two distinct, clean cuts on the left side of the spine. They were parallel from each other and separated by about half an inch.” (Evans and Skinner, 2000; pg 87)

Stride:
Testimony of Mr. George Bagster Phillips, divisional surgeon of police, 2, Spital-square
“There was a clean-cut incision on the neck. It was 6in. in length and commenced 2½in. in a straight line below the angle of the jaw, ¾in. (note ½ in. is stated in Begg, Fido, and Skinner, 1996; Pg 351, but in all other respects the quote is identical) over an undivided muscle, and then becoming deeper, dividing the sheath. The cut was very clean and deviated a little downwards. The artery and other vessels contained in the sheath were all cut through. The cut through the tissues on the right side was more superficial, and tailed off to about 2in. below the right angle of the jaw. The deep vessels on that side were uninjured.” (Evans and Skinner, 2000; pg 158).

Eddowes:
Testimony of Frederick Gordon Brown, 17 Finsbury Circus, Surgeon of City of London Police Force:
“The throat was cut across to the extent of about 6 or 7 inches. A superficial cut commenced about an inch and ½ below the lobe and about 2½ inches behind the left ear and extended across the throat to about 3 inches below the lobe of the right ear. The big muscle across the throat was divided through on the left side – the large vessels on the left side of the neck were severed – the larynx was severed below the vocal chords. All the deep structures were severed to the bone the knife marking intervertebral cartilages – the sheath of the vessels on the right side was just opened. The carotid artery hand a fine hole opening. The internal jugular vein was opened an inch and a half not divided. The blood vessels contained clot. ”(Evans and Skinner, 2000; pg 205/206)

Ok, that’s the testimony from the inquests that I have available to me.
Briefly, we have more details with regards to the wounds for Stride and Eddowes. Nichols has two cuts, one smaller (4 inches) than the other (encircled the neck). I would suggest the smaller was probably done first, and would direct the initial blood away from the killer on her right side. This is the important one for comparison between the cases.
With Chapman, there were fewer details, but the description reads to me like two circular cuts, rather than one smaller one and one that circles the entire neck. They are, however, located in similar locations as the two described on Nichols, and the presentation is minimal enough that we should be cautious about accepting my reading as an accurate description of both incisions. But if that is considered, then this is different from the 1 small 1 large wound to Nichols.

I’ll skip to Eddowes first:
The cut is described as 6-7 inches in length. There’s a superficial cut mentioned as well. It’s not entirely clear to me if this part of the description is providing details with regards to the 6-7 inch cut, or if this is a 2^nd cut. If it is details, then Eddowes only had her throat cut once, if it is a 2^nd, then this is unlike either Nichols or Chapman, as both cuts there were anything but superficial. The larger of the two, if there were two, did not damage the structures on the right side to any great extent (only a small hole in the right carotid artery is mentioned). This injury corresponds in many respects with the smaller, 4in. cut, performed on Nichols. If the superficial cut is a 2^nd injury, given the injuries also inflicted upon Eddowes’ eyelids, etc, this 2^nd injury may not have been inflicted until some other stage of the attack rather than at the point where JtR was cutting the throat to ensure death. I base that on its description of being superficial, but it possible that is a description of the beginnings of a a single injury to the throat, which eventually extends 6-7 inches.
Now, with regards to Stride. The injury to her throat is, within the levels of variation of the other throat injuries. It is, in many respects, a near re-telling of the slightly more severe injury inflicted upon Eddowes. Both are in the range of 6 inches, though Eddowes’s may be as long as 7. Nichols, however, had the smaller injury described as 4 inches. With both Stride and Eddowes the vessels on the right side are either uninjured (Stride) or only slightly so (Eddowes). A smaller initial throat cut, appears to be the initial attack JtR followed with both Nichols and Eddowes. The details for Chapman are insufficiently supplied to know for sure if this was followed, although it tends to read in a way that suggests it was not, and that both injuries were the deep encircling cuts. JtR, therefore, shows some variability. However, the commonalities between the overall mutilation pattern between Eddowes and Chapman in particular, link these two cases. The injuries to Nichols also links her to Chapman and Eddowes. The only wound inflicted upon Stride reads so much like that of Eddowes, that to discount Stride as a Ripper victim is unwarranted. There is enough evidence in that injury to warrant her consideration, particularly when combined with other aspects (similarly public locations, lack of noted disturbances, time of the attack, similar descriptions of people seen, victimology, and so forth). At the same time, the lack of the attack escalating into mutilations, the lack of a second throat injury, deep or superficial, and the possibility that the injury inflicted could be extremely common – it may be that most throat cuttings produce a description as per Stride and Eddowes. That is something I do not know. If this injury description is highly common, and it’s just what throat cutting tends to look like, then that similarity is of little value with regards to linkage. But if the similarity of description between Stride and Eddowes injury is far more similar than the description one would have when comparing two random throat cutting murders, then that would point towards a common hand. Noting the difference between Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes, all of whom are generally considered well linked, we see that the variability between wounds by what is considered the same hand, but on different nights, seems greater than that shown between two separate injuries committed on the same night.

So, I do think there is more than enough physical evidence available to warrant considering Stride a possible victim of JtR. It may not be enough to rule out the alternative, that she is not part of the series. But I think it is unsafe to suggest one or the other of those conclusions must be right.

------------------------------------------------------------

I was on the fence back then, and I'm still firmly in place.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

The method of murder is the same as the one committed 45 minutes later. Left carotid artery severance. Post-mortem mutilation was his thing, but it was not how he killed them, was it? A copycat who got lucky doing the same method as the Ripper within an hour. Jeff, do you have the probability odds on that?

Sadly, no. I only noticed your post asking about this, but I've just made a post pointing out I have no idea if the similarities are sufficiently rare to suggest a common hand, or if they are so common they could easily arise by comparing any two throat cut murders done by different people. That would require an expert in forensic pathology who has enough experience with throat cutting deaths that they could provide such information. I've thought this information could be important for some time now, but sadly, don't know any experts to ask an opinion from.

Schwartz is the issue, as far as I'm concerned, not whether Stride was a victim. She clearly was, in my view. It's simple: He was interrupted.

Throat cutting of women on the street was rare enough at that time, let two women succumb to the exact method of murder within an hour of each other.

- Jeff

[erobitha]

Sadly, no. I only noticed your post asking about this, but I've just made a post pointing out I have no idea if the similarities are sufficiently rare to suggest a common hand, or if they are so common they could easily arise by comparing any two throat cut murders done by different people. That would require an expert in forensic pathology who has enough experience with throat cutting deaths that they could provide such information. I've thought this information could be important for some time now, but sadly, don't know any experts to ask an opinion from.



- Jeff

I did come across the various types of murders recorded in that era, and murder by throat-cutting, particularly against women, was very low. Jack had a high percentage impact on the results. I will have to dig it out.

[erobitha]

Hi Erobiha,

The method of murder was the same in the sense that a carotid artery was cut, but the way I see it, not the way in which he attacked. In the other cases, he somehow rendered them senseless first, then lowered them to the ground, where they lay on their backs, then cut their throats and then he went on to mutilate them. In Stride’s case, it very much seems that he grabbed her by the scarf from behind, then pulled her backwards and cut her throat after that, very likely when she was already on the ground on her side.

Then, what I also take into consideration is that the Ripper, apparently, didn’t give himself away until it was too late for his victims. That would mean that he could have aborted his mission at any time before he would actually launch his initial attack. If he did kill Stride, then he also deviated on that point.

The fact that Stride was found on her side and not on her back with her skirts thrown up and the notion that the whole attack on her wouldn’t have taken more than a handful of seconds, tells me that she was killed when Diemshutz on his cart was already quite close to the yard when that happened, mayby just passing Fanny’s house at that point.

If it was the Ripper who killed her, then he was either spooked by Diemshutz or someone/something else the moment he had just cut her throat. Or else he would have continued with laying her on her back, then move her dress upwards, and so on. Or, of course, he decided to kill her anyway, even though he heard the approaching cart. I can see that happen if he was just too set on killing another woman. Or he had never planned to mutilate her to begin with.

The best,
Frank

I would suggest people consider that Stride was running to the club to raise the alarm. That would explain a lot, in my view. The similarity of how the throats were cut of Stride and Eddowes within an hour of each other is just far too much of a coincidence.

[Michael W Richards]

What bugs me about the interruption theory is that surely the man who'd near-decapitated his other victims, whom we know used a very sharp knife, would have inflicted a more "thorough" wound on Stride. It only takes a second or so to slash a throat, and JTR already had experience of doing so – to devastating effect – at least twice.

Nice to see you on the same side of the fence Sam. Another angle questioning that line of thinking might be IF there was an interruption that prevented further injuries that then presumes that if he hadnt been, that is the spot he chose to be Jack the Ripper. Would the man who was quite successful evading detection in the backyard of a house on Hanbury choose to begin what he hopes will culminate in abdominal cutting and perhaps organ extraction...in that particular spot? When an empty yard and stables are just a few steps away?

To Roberts reply to your post, the double cuts are significant. And as Sam points out, they are absent in the case of Stride, despite what seems like having enough time to draw the blade back across the throat once more.

[Losmandris]

For me I have always seen Stride as a victim of JtR. I do not believe that BS man killed Stride. I also tend to agree with CD that minute changes in circumstances could have had an impact on how the killer inflicted the injuries. For me it is just too much of a coincidence that these two murders happen on the same night/same area (with a lot of similarities, too many similarities for me) and the fact that it is more than possible that the murderer could have been responsible for both. The possibility that JtRs urges had not been sated still holds true. This something seen with other killers (Ted Bundy possibly) and has to be taken into consideration here

[Holmes' Idiot Brother]

For me I have always seen Stride as a victim of JtR. I do not believe that BS man killed Stride. I also tend to agree with CD that minute changes in circumstances could have had an impact on how the killer inflicted the injuries. For me it is just too much of a coincidence that these two murders happen on the same night/same area (with a lot of similarities, too many similarities for me) and the fact that it is more than possible that the murderer could have been responsible for both. The possibility that JtRs urges had not been sated still holds true. This something seen with other killers (Ted Bundy possibly) and has to be taken into consideration here

While I am still on the fence about Stride, it must be noted that, according to Sugden, while violence against women was common in the East End at the time, it was actually pretty rare for a woman to be murdered. He also noted that the year previous there had been no actual murders of women in the East End. And yet a year later we are asked to believe that suddenly two disparate murderers took up shop in Whitechapel and Spitalfields? This is where we have to apply probability, chance, and a whole lot of Occam's Razor to the probable. For me, Stride probably was a JTR victim, but it's arguable that she was not. It could go either way.

[Michael W Richards]

For me I have always seen Stride as a victim of JtR. I do not believe that BS man killed Stride. I also tend to agree with CD that minute changes in circumstances could have had an impact on how the killer inflicted the injuries. For me it is just too much of a coincidence that these two murders happen on the same night/same area (with a lot of similarities, too many similarities for me) and the fact that it is more than possible that the murderer could have been responsible for both. The possibility that JtRs urges had not been sated still holds true. This something seen with other killers (Ted Bundy possibly) and has to be taken into consideration here

Well, Liz Strides cut throat has much more in common with Mrs Browns, which her husband gave her that same night. Forgive my insensitivity, but rather mundane when compared with what was done to Kate. I note that you dont favour BSM as the killer, presumably because you dont see JtR approaching a situation in that way. I would agree if thats the case, I doubt he would have. But if Israels story is in fact the truth, then its almost certainly BSM as the killer. There is no other man seen by anyone within a block of those gates at that time, and the only man seen on the street before 1 is Goldstein. And he isnt coming from the club, he is walking past the gates.

Ive made it clear that I believe the Israel Schwartz story is not factual as given, although there may be elements that are true. Like for example if he was actually leaving the club via the side door and saw what he claims inside the passageway, slightly inside behind the open gate, on about the spot where is found. He scoots past them not wanting to get involved and out via the gates. That I could believe.

A poor immigrant Jew just happens to be outside a club at 12:45 at night, one that has 30 or so poor immigrant jews on the second floor singing and drinking. He claims he just happened by the club and that he was checking to see if his wife had finished moving their things....from where no-one knows, but she would have had 12 hours or more to move what is most likely a few clothes, maybe a stick of furniture. Would that have taken 12 hours? If they had to move that day, doesnt that insinuate that a new tenant would be probably be moving in...start of a new month and all. So why would she still be there at 12:45 the next morning?

[The Rookie Detective]

I’m loathe to begin another Stride thread because the other one is more interesting (and productive with the timings being worked on by Jeff, Frank and George) but here goes.


Was Elizabeth Stride a Ripper victim? I’ve gone back and forth on this for years and I still can’t be certain. So what about likelihood?


First, let’s look at the three possible descriptions from that night. Joseph Lawende for Eddowes and PC Smith and Israel Schwartz for Stride.

1. Lawende’s description of the man that he saw with Eddowes:

A MAN, age 30, height 5 ft. 7 or 8 in., complexion fair, moustache fair, medium build; dress, pepper-and-salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same material, reddish neckerchief tied in knot; appearance of a sailor.

2. Schwartz description of BS man:

Age about 30, height 5 ft. 5 in., complexion fair, hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered; dress, dark jacket & trousers, black cap with peak, had nothing in his hands

3. PC Smith description of Parcelman:

Age about 28. Height 5ft. 7in. Dark Felt Deerstalker. Dark clothes. Cutaway coat. No whiskers. Newspaper parcel 18 inches by 6-8 inches. Respectable looking.


We can’t be totally certain that Lawende saw Eddowes with her killer of course but the timing suggests that it was very possible to the point of being very likely that he did. So how does his description compare to 2 and 3?

The age is no problem. Height is always difficult to judge so I wouldn’t quibble about 5’5” and 5’7” or 5’8” but the build is an issue. Schwartz man stood out as having broad shoulders (as well as being slightly shorter) whereas Lawende’s man was of medium build. When I think of Schwartz man the word ‘stocky’ comes to mind which is a word that wouldn’t apply to the other two.

Lawende’s man also had a moustache but Smith’s didn’t. Lawende’s man had a pepper and salt coloured coat the other two had dark. Smith described a cutaway coat.

Then there are the hats. Lawende’s man has a grey cloth with a peak whereas Schwartz man had a black cap and Smith’s describes a dark one. I’ve no issue with the types of hat as a deerstalker might have been mistaken for a cloth cap in poor light and seen from one direction but the colours are an issue. Plus of course the red neckerchief stood out for Lawende but there was no mention of this with the other two.

So for me there’s nothing that stands out to say that Lawende’s man was ever in Berner Street. No broad shoulders (Schwartz) no moustache (Smith) no red neckerchief (Lawende) and different colour hats are just four of the differences.


Other doubts are obvious. Would the ripper have gone on to kill after being seen by a Constable with the victim so close to where she was murdered? Would the killer have gone on to kill after being seen by two men as he struggled with the victim and she fell to the ground feet from where she was found dead? I take the point that some might mention Lawende possibly seeing the killer with Eddowes but he wasn’t drawing attention to himself and if Lawende was just glancing across the killer might not even have noticed them looking in his direction. Plus he had Eddowes between himself and the witness. Elizabeth Long might also get a mention but again the killer (if it was the killer of course) wasn’t drawing attention to himself and Long didn’t see his face.


So what about the location…inside the gate to Dutfield’s Yard? All the murders involved risk of course and Hanbury Street is a fair point but was it really as risky as the Stride murder? At the side of a club with the side door possibly open or ajar (as per Mrs Diemschitz) And with singing going on at that hour the killer couldn’t have failed to have understood that at any time members would have been leaving by that side door to head home. Then we have the open gates. Yes it was dark but Constable’s have a habit of shining lamps in dark corners. And again, what if the side door was open giving at least some light?


I’m going climb down from the fence and step to one side. I think it likely that Stride wasn’t a ripper victim.

You had me at "I'm loathe to begin..."

That got my attention straight away; another excellent thread Herlock!



RD

[Herlock Sholmes]

You had me at "I'm loathe to begin..."

That got my attention straight away; another excellent thread Herlock!



RD

I’m getting tired of walking around in Berner Street RD