Who Killed Stride?

[The Rookie Detective]

I think the answer to whether Stride was a Ripper victim lies in the witness Schwartz, but not in the way that one might think.


I have in recent times been as close to certain that Schwartz's story was a work of fabrication...but to what end?


Countless other threads discuss Stride and Schwartz etc...but ultimately, the only question that really matters in context with the case is this...


Was Stride a victim of Jack the Ripper?


Now as most of you will know, I am not a supporter of the Schwartz story and have always been baffled as to why and how the majority still have faith in Schwartz.

But in recent days I have been working on a new hypothesis, and Schwartz plays an integral part in that.



So, relating to this specific thread I will say this; I believe that Stride WAS a victim of Jack the Ripper and that the thing that sways it for me is Schwartz.

Now I won't go into the reasons why on this thread, because it will detract from the purpose of this thread and flood it with other concepts that I can go into detail about on alternative thread.

What I will say though is that Schwartz's account MAY be the one individual piece of information that links the murder of Stride to other murders.


I believe I have found a potential link between the murders of Stride, McKenzie, Eddowes, the Pinchin Street torso, and possibly Chapman and Kelly as well.

And I am not referring to the GSG.


I am referring to Schwartz


Who killed Stride?


Well, I don't believe it was Schwartz...but I do believe that the man who gave his name as Israel Schwartz was trying to make a point and possibly knew who the killer was.


I will reveal more in another thread over the coming days.


In the meantime... I believe that the Ripper did kill Stride, but that he was incognito and able to alter his appearance accordingly.


But who was the Ripper from the list of individuals who were present in Berner Street...


I believe the Ripper may have either been the man seen by Marshall who said "You would say anything but your prayers"

OR

Parcelman who concealed his knife in the "parcel"


Lots to ponder



RD

[Sam Flynn]

While I am still on the fence about Stride, it must be noted that, according to Sugden, while violence against women was common in the East End at the time, it was actually pretty rare for a woman to be murdered. He also noted that the year previous there had been no actual murders of women in the East End.

Perhaps what Sugden didn't know at time of writing that official reports/statistics on "murder" are skewed. Not every murder entered the public record and, in many cases, murders were wilfully* or accidentally misclassified as manslaughter, accident or suicide. Furthermore, cases of murder were sometimes "commuted" to manslaughter or quashed on appeal, whether the revised verdict reflected the truth or not. The picture is further complicated when one considers that not all murders would have been brought to the attention of the authorities, particularly in neighbourhoods where high levels of criminality went hand-in-glove with a mistrust of the Law.

* I say "wilfully misclassified", because there is evidence that some coroners occasionally preferred to return a verdict on a lesser charge, if only to make their districts seem less unruly than they actually were.

[FrankO]

I would suggest people consider that Stride was running to the club to raise the alarm. That would explain a lot, in my view.

Hi Jay,

That's just one of my points. While it may explain a lot, it doesn't explain why she would be wanting to raise an alarm to begin with. The Ripper, in the other cases, seems to have been able to not raise any suspicion in any of his victims before they realized what was happening to them.

This would be one of the differences between Stride and the others. The other obvious one would be the timing and, as a consequence, the number of witnesses up & about.

And, as I said in my previous post, the fact that, if it was the Ripper, he must have been disturbed at the very moment he was cutting the throat or had just finished doing so.

The similarity of how the throats were cut of Stride and Eddowes within an hour of each other is just far too much of a coincidence.

These are indeed two reasons for arguing Stride was a Ripper victim. They, in fact, keep me on the fence. But they also give me the impression of a bit of tunnel vision on the part of those who think she was a Ripper victim just or mostly because of these two reasons.

So, I'm on the fence with my legs on the non-ripper side, but I would have no problem if it ever turned out that Stride did, in fact, fall victim to the Ripper.

The best,
Frank

[etenguy]

This is an interesting question to revisit. Like everyone else, I fence straddle but with a slight leaning towards Stride more likely than not being a victim of the ripper.

I think all have made good points on this thread and I think we all agree there is no conclusive evidence yet known.

Given that descriptions are not incompatible with one murderer, the throat cutting not incompatible with one murderer and the possible source of interruption identified, my reason for leaning into the ripper being Stride's killer as more likely are the addition of the geography and timing of the two murders. This could be a coincidence, but there are a lot of factors building to too many coincidences for it not to suggest one and the same murderer. That an accepted ripper victim was murdered a distance and time away from Stride compatible with the murderer moving onto a second victim, in an area not at the heart of the other ripper crimes but 'local' to the Stride crime, is a very strong coincidence if not the same murderer. Of course this is not conclusive, but it sways my thinking to the likelihood that the ripper was involved in both murders.

[c.d.]

And, as I said in my previous post, the fact that, if it was the Ripper, he must have been disturbed at the very moment he was cutting the throat or had just finished doing so.

Hello Frank,

Except that it needn't have been an actual physical interruption. What if he had a bad feeling from the start due to the people in the club and the singing but still wanted to go through with it? Not unreasonable to think that at any time he could have heard a voice in his head saying Stride is not the only woman in Whitechapel and this is an unsafe place to be.

And let me add as an aside that I appreciate your capacity to consider all points of view and always respond with politeness even when you differ.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

For anybody freaked out by the idea of Stride and Eddowes being killed by different murderers on the same night, I heartily recommend a recent lecture on "The Mathematics of Coincidence" by Sarah Hart at Gresham College: www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBG_T-KUvj0

In fact, I'd recommend Gresham's excellent YouTube channel in general. It's a mine of information on all kinds of topics.

[Michael W Richards]

The year 1888 was not Jack the Rippers private playground, he was not the only maniac or violent killer to have committed terrible acts that year. In the Unsolved Files for the East End during 1888 there are 13 women whose murders were not solved. The total that any card carrying Ripperologist generally entertains is between 5 and 6 Jack the Ripper victims. That leaves the majority of the Unsolved Murders to other men, or women.

The Torso's, despicable acts that had been occurring in that area for over a decade preceding the Ripper period. One could argue that the Torso Man was more of a maniac because of the longer history and the fact he chopped up his victims into sections. That is of course if all those Torso's were done by one man, or the same men. Which to me is the most probable answer, because the act of dismemberment was a more rare event than slit throats, just like organ extractions were rare. But killing women wasnt just left up to Jack and Torso Man, perhaps 8 of the 13 victims in that Unsolved File were likely not attributable to either monster. And some murders that were "solved" may not have been if tried again today. No shortage of men or knives available, but a very small amount of murder for organs killers.

So....what are the odds of 2 women in that area having their throats slit on the same night by different killers? Well, it happened to 3 women that night. But only 1 had organs taken. There is evidence then that 3 different killers may well have killed on the same night. There is also evidence that only 1 woman had internal organs cut from them and taken by the killer.

If you cast your net too wide you will find that you caught fish that arent edible. I suggest you throw them back, and focus on catching just the ones that are.

[Geddy2112]

I'm getting tired of walking around in Berner Street

Have you thought of doing a 'House of Berner Street' set of videos for YouTube?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Have you thought of doing a 'House of Berner Street' set of videos for YouTube?

Noooooooo

[Geddy2112]

Noooooooo

Shames.... lot of money to be made, speaking of making money I'm now selling tweezers and antiseptic cream in gift baskets for all the splinters that need removing for all the 'fence sitters' of this thread.. message me for prices.

[Michael W Richards]

Shames.... lot of money to be made, speaking of making money I'm now selling tweezers and antiseptic cream in gift baskets for all the splinters that need removing for all the 'fence sitters' of this thread.. message me for prices.

Youll have a much broader audience here if you didnt limit yourself to only this thread. So many fences, so many straddlers.

You know in a gunfight if you dont make your decision quick enough you get shot. Not suggesting that as a remedy of course....just for the jolly.

[FrankO]

Hello Frank,

Except that it needn't have been an actual physical interruption. What if he had a bad feeling from the start due to the people in the club and the singing but still wanted to go through with it? Not unreasonable to think that at any time he could have heard a voice in his head saying Stride is not the only woman in Whitechapel and this is an unsafe place to be.

Hi C.D.,

I agree, he could very well have been interrupted by a bad feeling, having second thoughts about the location or the woman herself. I have no pickle with any of the possibilities. I'm just seeing a number of differences with regards to the other cases and they would need to be explaned for the culprit to have been the Ripper, whilst they could all be simply explained by another perpetrator than the Ripper.

And let me add as an aside that I appreciate your capacity to consider all points of view and always respond with politeness even when you differ.

Thanks, C.D., I hope and I haven't let you down.

Cheers,
Frank

[Michael W Richards]

Hi C.D.,

I'm just seeing a number of differences with regards to the other cases and they would need to be explaned for the culprit to have been the Ripper, whilst they could all be simply explained by another perpetrator than the Ripper.

Cheers,
Frank

William of Occam tips his hat to you. Instead of seeking to force a round peg into a square hole, maybe just look harder for a round peg. What happened to Liz Stride is in no way an extraordinary example of Victorian era violence perpetrated on women. What happened to Kate, was. Horse vs Unicorn. An average Horse is not extraordinary, any Unicorn is.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Three facts.

1. We don’t know who killed Elizabeth Stride.

2. It might have been the man that we know as Jack the Ripper.

3. It might not have been the man that we know as Jack the Ripper.


That’s as far as we can go. Our own interpretations of what evidence we have can push our personal levels of likelihood one way or the other, but that’s all.


Anyone that claims to know for certain the answer to any of the above is simply wrong.

[JeffHamm]

Three facts.

1. We don’t know who killed Elizabeth Stride.

2. It might have been the man that we know as Jack the Ripper.

3. It might not have been the man that we know as Jack the Ripper.


That’s as far as we can go. Our own interpretations of what evidence we have can push our personal levels of likelihood one way or the other, but that’s all.


Anyone that claims to know for certain the answer to any of the above is simply wrong.

Hi Herlock,

I couldn't agree more if I tried! The information we have from the witness descriptions is equivocal, and could arise just as easily if the same or different people were the murder(s) of Stride and Eddowes. As such, in terms of information for or against, it's effectively zero. As for the comparison in the one common wound, I personally don't know what to make of that because it requires expert knowledge beyond my ken, and so I don't know if it should make me lean one way or the other or not. The lack of mutilations on Stride, and her being on her side rather than her back, either reflects something specific about her murder, but whether that "specific" is "different killer" or "something about the situation spooked JtR", is unknow. Going with my "gut" is just to impart my own personal bias, and that's what we should be trying to avoid in my view.

Whenever Stride gets discussed in the bigger picture, I do tend to take the perspective that she is a victim of JtR simply because if she's not, the whole discussion becomes moot. Of course if she's not, then she need not be mentioned but if she is that leads to the more interesting talking points. But I'm never convinced her inclusion is correct, but neither am I convinced she should be omitted.

So far, however, I don't think I've seen any JtR discussion on a bigger picture that hinges solely on her inclusion or exclusion. For those who argue for "no single Jack", I don't think anyone bases that solely on Stride, rather they either argue for 5 separate killers, or maybe Nichols and Chapman, with separate killers for the rest, and so forth. I've not seen anyone suggest "Nichols-Chapman-Eddowes-Kelly" are JtR, and Stride someone else (although I suppose that's sort of what my position is when I put on my "not Stride" hat).

I suppose the one big change that arises when we consider Stride as not by JtR is that it means we no longer can assume that JtR fled west to where he meets Eddowes, and his direction of travel when he meets up with her could be from any direction. And perhaps that has greater implications than I'm giving it.

- Jeff