Who Killed Stride?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’m loathe to begin another Stride thread because the other one is more interesting (and productive with the timings being worked on by Jeff, Frank and George) but here goes.


Was Elizabeth Stride a Ripper victim? I’ve gone back and forth on this for years and I still can’t be certain. So what about likelihood?


First, let’s look at the three possible descriptions from that night. Joseph Lawende for Eddowes and PC Smith and Israel Schwartz for Stride.

1. Lawende’s description of the man that he saw with Eddowes:

A MAN, age 30, height 5 ft. 7 or 8 in., complexion fair, moustache fair, medium build; dress, pepper-and-salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same material, reddish neckerchief tied in knot; appearance of a sailor.

2. Schwartz description of BS man:

Age about 30, height 5 ft. 5 in., complexion fair, hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered; dress, dark jacket & trousers, black cap with peak, had nothing in his hands

3. PC Smith description of Parcelman:

Age about 28. Height 5ft. 7in. Dark Felt Deerstalker. Dark clothes. Cutaway coat. No whiskers. Newspaper parcel 18 inches by 6-8 inches. Respectable looking.


We can’t be totally certain that Lawende saw Eddowes with her killer of course but the timing suggests that it was very possible to the point of being very likely that he did. So how does his description compare to 2 and 3?

The age is no problem. Height is always difficult to judge so I wouldn’t quibble about 5’5” and 5’7” or 5’8” but the build is an issue. Schwartz man stood out as having broad shoulders (as well as being slightly shorter) whereas Lawende’s man was of medium build. When I think of Schwartz man the word ‘stocky’ comes to mind which is a word that wouldn’t apply to the other two.

Lawende’s man also had a moustache but Smith’s didn’t. Lawende’s man had a pepper and salt coloured coat the other two had dark. Smith described a cutaway coat.

Then there are the hats. Lawende’s man has a grey cloth with a peak whereas Schwartz man had a black cap and Smith’s describes a dark one. I’ve no issue with the types of hat as a deerstalker might have been mistaken for a cloth cap in poor light and seen from one direction but the colours are an issue. Plus of course the red neckerchief stood out for Lawende but there was no mention of this with the other two.

So for me there’s nothing that stands out to say that Lawende’s man was ever in Berner Street. No broad shoulders (Schwartz) no moustache (Smith) no red neckerchief (Lawende) and different colour hats are just four of the differences.


Other doubts are obvious. Would the ripper have gone on to kill after being seen by a Constable with the victim so close to where she was murdered? Would the killer have gone on to kill after being seen by two men as he struggled with the victim and she fell to the ground feet from where she was found dead? I take the point that some might mention Lawende possibly seeing the killer with Eddowes but he wasn’t drawing attention to himself and if Lawende was just glancing across the killer might not even have noticed them looking in his direction. Plus he had Eddowes between himself and the witness. Elizabeth Long might also get a mention but again the killer (if it was the killer of course) wasn’t drawing attention to himself and Long didn’t see his face.


So what about the location…inside the gate to Dutfield’s Yard? All the murders involved risk of course and Hanbury Street is a fair point but was it really as risky as the Stride murder? At the side of a club with the side door possibly open or ajar (as per Mrs Diemschitz) And with singing going on at that hour the killer couldn’t have failed to have understood that at any time members would have been leaving by that side door to head home. Then we have the open gates. Yes it was dark but Constable’s have a habit of shining lamps in dark corners. And again, what if the side door was open giving at least some light?


I’m going climb down from the fence and step to one side. I think it likely that Stride wasn’t a ripper victim.

[GBinOz]

Hi Herlock,

I seem to recall that it was reported by Phillip's assistant that Phillips didn't think Stride was a JtR victim. Can't find that reference at present, but there is this from the inquest:

[Coroner] Is there any similarity between this case and Annie Chapman's case? - There is very great dissimilarity between the two. In Chapman's case the neck was severed all round down to the vertebral column, the vertebral bones being marked with two sharp cuts, and there had been an evident attempt to separate the bones.

Like you I have spent time sitting on the fence, and leaning on each side side of the fence, but at this time I'll join you on the "maybe not" side.

Cheers, George

[Holmes' Idiot Brother]

Hello Herlock!

I have wrestled with this for years, and I still find myself on the fence. If Stride was murdered by the Ripper, then the Ripper showed an almost ludicrous lack of self-preservation by committing the deed with people like Schwartz and the unidentified man out and about nearby! As a retired Corrections Officer, I have met my share of brazen and stupid criminals, but never any as brazen and stupid as in this instance. I'm sure we can all agree that "sweet reason" was never the Ripper's guiding force in life, but to commit an obvious assault/murder in full view of God and Man, and not expect or care that he is exposing himself would mean that the poor bugger must have gone completely off the rails. And I'm sure we can also agree that the Ripper had the Devil's own share of pure luck. I would not ask the dumbest murderer in my jail to commit an act like that, because if I did I would be deservedly laughed at and mocked.

But luck runs two ways. It is just barely plausible that Liz Stride's end was the result of very bad luck - on an epic scale and of biblical proportions: after being slapped around and assaulted by her domestic partner, she dusts herself off and almost immediately runs smack into Jack The Ripper! (Karma is visiting Stride after her lies about being a survivor of The Princess Alice!) Jack dispatches Stride, is interrupted by Diemschutz, and has to scarper off for greener pastures. Clearly enraged, he does a right proper job on Cathy Eddowes, possibly purposefully leaving behind her piece of apron at the place he perhaps wrote the GSG, a.k.a. The Great Non-Clue. It may seem ridiculous on the face of it....yet still possible.

I am of two minds: I can accept that Stride was murdered by the Ripper by allowing that an incredible stroke of luck befell him. It happens. I can also believe that Stride was not a Ripper victim, and more likely the victim of a domestic assault-turned-murder. If it is later proven somehow that Stride was not a Ripper victim, I will be neither surprised nor upset, and simply chalk it up to the karmic vagaries at work when you have nearly 5 million people living together within a few square miles. At any rate, a strong argument can be made (and you have made it) disqualifying Stride as a Ripper victim.

[drstrange169]

I've always said I'm on the fence, but my legs are dangling on the ripper side.

After many years, older, wiser/more stupid, I'm ready just about ready to jump in the opposite direction. The witnesses, the timing, the location and the forensics just don't fit. It's a BIG coincidence, but I think it is a coincidence, nothing more.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks for the replies George, HIB and Dusty.

It could be suggested that with the act of pulling Stride by the arm the ripper might have been attempting to get her to go with him to a safer spot, then when she refused to go with him he killed her either in anger at being rejected or perhaps he didn’t want her describing him to the police?

A point that I forgot to mention was the not very loud ‘screams’ which perhaps might suggest that she knew BS man.

[FrankO]

Nicely put, Fiver. I've always been on the fence, with my legs dangling on the non-ripper side.

And I'm still inclined to think she didn't fall victim to the Ripper. I'm not a fan of witness descriptions, as they're not necesssarily reliable, unless the various descriptions hold an aspect that would have stood out, like a flower pinned to a dress, a man respectably dressed, or a black bag or a parcel. Peaked caps, shabbily dressed, whiskers, dark moustache, light moustache wouldn't/doesn't cut it for me. That would be too general for me.

In Stride's case it's the timing, that allowed there to be so many witnesses, and the way in which she seems to have been attacked and killed (and that differed from the other cases), that make me lean towards no Ripper victim. Also, if she would have been found on her back with her dress worked up, then I'd been more inclined to think she was a Ripper victim.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Nicely put, Fiver. I've always been on the fence, with my legs dangling on the non-ripper side.

And I'm still inclined to think she didn't fall victim to the Ripper. I'm not a fan of witness descriptions, as they're not necesssarily reliable, unless the various descriptions hold an aspect that would have stood out, like a flower pinned to a dress, a man respectably dressed, or a black bag or a parcel. Peaked caps, shabbily dressed, whiskers, dark moustache, light moustache wouldn't/doesn't cut it for me. That would be too general for me.

In Stride's case it's the timing, that allowed there to be so many witnesses, and the way in which she seems to have been attacked and killed (and that differed from the other cases), that make me lean towards no Ripper victim. Also, if she would have been found on her back with her dress worked up, then I'd been more inclined to think she was a Ripper victim.

Cheers Frank.

You meant ‘Dusty’ instead of ‘Fiver’ of course.

[FrankO]

Cheers Frank.

You meant ‘Dusty’ instead of ‘Fiver’ of course.

Indeed I did. Thanks Mike and sorry Dusty. I don't know what came over me.

[Geddy2112]

I'm in agreeance with most here. Years and years ago I was not at all convinced Stride was a Ripper victim, mainly to do with the timings and the getting to Mitre Square etc. Now after watching the House of Lechmere videos on the subject I'm completely convinced Stride was a Ripper murder victim because of the excellent case Stow puts forward regarding the Geography of Lechmere's mother etc. There can be no other way it panned out. Very conclusive.

No seriously I'm like most on the fence. It's possible of course she was but I'm very slightly inclined to go with 'no not for me.'

[Darryl Kenyon]

One of the bug bears I have with the killing of Liz is the suggestion that the ripper would have not killed her where there was at least one witness and possibly two witnessing him assault Liz shortly before he murders her. True, but isn't that true of anyone, ripper or not ? Lets assume Kidney killed her, would he really do that knowing he would be dragged in by the police and questioned, knowing there were two witnesses who could ID him . BS man did not kill Liz [ if he existed at all ]. The medical evidence flies in the face of this alone.
So who are we left with ? A killer who silently and swiftly cut Liz's throat in a darkened spot with possible evidence of strangulation between dusk and dawn in an area of unsolved murders of middle aged fallen women who were also killed by the use of a knife in darkened spots between dusk and dawn, most with their throats cut and evidence of strangulation in some of them.
And with another murder happening not more than half a mile away on the same night and within the same time scale with the use of a knife to murder the victim by throat slitting in an area [ despite how rough ], was seen as rare.

Regards Darryl

[Fiver]

I lean towards Schwartz' account being true. It shows him running off and leaving Stride to her fate, which doesn't make Schwartz look very good, something you wouldn't expect from a publicity seeker. The Ripper was good at not attracting attention, keeping victims silent, and maintaining control of them physically. Broadshouldered Man was not. So Broadshouldered Man was the most likely killer, but probably not the Ripper.

That said, there is barely enough time for the Ripper to play white knight for Stride, kill her, be interrupted, and flee.

[Herlock Sholmes]

One of the bug bears I have with the killing of Liz is the suggestion that the ripper would have not killed her where there was at least one witness and possibly two witnessing him assault Liz shortly before he murders her. True, but isn't that true of anyone, ripper or not ? Lets assume Kidney killed her, would he really do that knowing he would be dragged in by the police and questioned, knowing there were two witnesses who could ID him . BS man did not kill Liz [ if he existed at all ]. The medical evidence flies in the face of this alone.
So who are we left with ? A killer who silently and swiftly cut Liz's throat in a darkened spot with possible evidence of strangulation between dusk and dawn in an area of unsolved murders of middle aged fallen women who were also killed by the use of a knife in darkened spots between dusk and dawn, most with their throats cut and evidence of strangulation in some of them.
And with another murder happening not more than half a mile away on the same night and within the same time scale with the use of a knife to murder the victim by throat slitting in an area [ despite how rough ], was seen as rare.

Regards Darryl

Hi Darryl,

Perhaps it’s more the intent that’s in question? A choice between the killer being the ripper who set out to kill and chose Stride and accepted the location or a killer who wasn’t the ripper who might have killed in a moment of anger without giving the location or the fact that he might have been seen a thought?

[erobitha]

The method of murder is the same as the one committed 45 minutes later. Left carotid artery severance. Post-mortem mutilation was his thing, but it was not how he killed them, was it? A copycat who got lucky doing the same method as the Ripper within an hour. Jeff, do you have the probability odds on that?

Schwartz is the issue, as far as I'm concerned, not whether Stride was a victim. She clearly was, in my view. It's simple: He was interrupted.

Throat cutting of women on the street was rare enough at that time, let two women succumb to the exact method of murder within an hour of each other.

[Michael W Richards]

Were the mutilations performed on Pollys abdomen representative of a completed act, or the beginning of one? If Jack killed Annie, which I personally believe is the ONLY victim that is certainly a victim of solo killer Jack the Ripper, then that cutting on Polly might represent an incomplete act. So there is a potential yet tenous connection from one to the next.

What physical act connects Annie Chapmans death with Liz Strides? A single version of a double cut throat. On the surface thats hardly a direct correlation of Victim 2 to a possible Victim 3 by a singular suspected killer, but I believe The Jack the Ripper supposition for Liz is more about the timing and geography, not about whether the wounds Annie suffered are in any way similar to Strides.

Surprised to see Herlock allign with something Ive been posting here for many years, but solar eclipses do happen too. Just not very often.

[Michael W Richards]

The method of murder is the same as the one committed 45 minutes later. Left carotid artery severance. Post-mortem mutilation was his thing, but it was not how he killed them, was it? A copycat who got lucky doing the same method as the Ripper within an hour. Jeff, do you have the probability odds on that?

Schwartz is the issue, as far as I'm concerned, not whether Stride was a victim. She clearly was, in my view. It's simple: He was interrupted.

Throat cutting of women on the street was rare enough at that time, let two women succumb to the exact method of murder within an hour of each other.

"It's simple: He was interrupted."

Hmm. Im going to try a new tact dealing with this particular "belief" that many share.

So, Erobitha, what are the characteristics present in the crime scene evidence of Liz Strides murder that suggest the killer was interrupted? What evidence is there to support your simple solution?

(hint: Something significant not being present isnt a viable argument for Jack the Ripper, in fact its the opposite.)