Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[Dr. John Watson]

With respect to the witness Israel Schwartz and his non-appearance at the Stride inquest, here's what acknowledged experts Steward Evans and Donald Rumbelow had to say on the subject in Jack the Ripper, Scotland Yard Investigates, Sutton Publishing, 2006:

"Schwartz was, in fact, the most important witness if his statement* was honest and accurate. His version of events also indicated the possibility that two men were involved in the murder of Stride." [*The authors do not specify which of Schwartz's statements they're referring to, but the two retired police officers clearly favor the police version as the most accurate.]

Noting that Schwartz was not called upon to testify at the inquest, the authors say this in a footnote:

"Schwartz probably did not appear at the inquest because he spoke hardly any English and required an interpreter. The coroner had the authority to accept written statements in lieu of a witness actually appearing."

If Wynne Baxter was aware of Schwartz and if he was supplied with a copy of Schwartz's police statement, he gave no clue to this in his published findings, nor did he refer to any information unique to Schwartz's statement.

John

[lynn cates]

report

Hello John. Thanks.

You seem to be quoting from that report.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

You can trust Swanson.

Hello MB. Thanks.

That is from "The Star"?

Quoting apparently from Abberline's interrogation, Swanson said, "The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road 'Lipski'. . . . "

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

What Abberline actually wrote in his official report was that Schwartz was "unable to say" to whom the oath ("Lipski") was directed, himself or the man assaulting Stride. Apparently the Star reporter had greater success with his interpreter. In the Star account, Schwartz says nothing about "Lipski" but does state that the man with the knife shouted out "some sort of warning" to the man assaulting Stride.

John

Hello Dr John , If this Is correct then surely Warren made a huge mistake when forwarding his account .. Warren would have us believe that the man who threw the woman down called out , and not the Pipe man in the doorway ?

The man who threw the woman down called out, apparently to the man on the oppos- ite side of the road, 'Lipski',

It is the press account that has Pipe man calling out , just like you say Abberline wrote in his official report ?? is this correct ?

Cheers , Moonbegger

[lynn cates]

chance meeting

Hello Caroline. Thanks.

I've never been able to see BSM in a relationship with Liz. How rare would such a chance meeting be?

Cheers.
LC

[Dr. John Watson]

Hello John. Thanks.

"Mention of doubt in the Star doesn't really mean much if police records suggest just the opposite."

Entirely agree. Do you, perhaps, have access to the original interview at Lehman and the dictum which ostensibly precipitated the story in "The Star"? I'd love to see it.

If only . . . .

"And Abberline's failure to grasp what Schwartz was saying about "Lipski" sounds like an impatient cop frustrated with a hard to understand interpreter."

Abberline clearly stated that he had questioned Schwartz closely on the point--to no avail.

What Abberline actually wrote in his official report was that Schwartz was "unable to say" to whom the oath ("Lipski") was directed, himself or the man assaulting Stride. Apparently the Star reporter had greater success with his interpreter. In the Star account, Schwartz says nothing about "Lipski" but does state that the man with the knife shouted out "some sort of warning" to the man assaulting Stride.

"My opinion of Abberline's skill as an interviewer has slipped a notch."

Indeed? Have you read FGA's note, pp. 126 & 7 "Ultimate"?

Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of that excellent book; perhaps you'd be kind enough to share that note with me?

John

[moonbegger]

Hello MB. Thanks.

"According to Schwartz's press statement he was."

You mean BSM shouting at PM?
LC

No Lynn , PM ( in the doorway ) shouting at BSM ( man with the woman )

just as he stepped from the kerb a second man came out of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman,

How does that propose BSM shouting at PM ???

Caz ,

I think MB only meant the perception that a domestic was being witnessed - a ding-dong between BSM and his missus.

Thanks Caz , that's exactly what I meant ..

cheers , moonbegger .

[caz]

Send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance

...Abberline's failure to grasp what Schwartz was saying about "Lipski" sounds like an impatient cop frustrated with a hard to understand interpreter. My opinion of Abberline's skill as an interviewer has slipped a notch.

Hold on John. Surely it was just a matter of Schwartz being uncertain whether "Lipski" was directed at himself or Pipeman. If he had no way of telling, Abberline had no way of getting to the bottom of it. Simple as.

Hello MB. Thanks.

"Not his missus, Lynn, BSM's missus."

Are you seriously suggesting that BSM was married to Liz? A secret union perhaps? And so he accidentally ran across her in Berner?

I think MB only meant the perception that a domestic was being witnessed - a ding-dong between BSM and his missus.

Love,

Caz
X

[Stephen Thomas]

Just for jolly, there is no way that Schwartz's evidence was not heard at the inquest.

Given that he apparently witnessed the prelude to the murder and all.

So his evidence would have been given secretly or in camera as they say.

A classic case of the police withholding evidence.

Schwartz was totally unknown until 1976 via Stephen Knight's book.

[lynn cates]

F G A

Hello John. Thanks.

"Mention of doubt in the Star doesn't really mean much if police records suggest just the opposite."

Entirely agree. Do you, perhaps, have access to the original interview at Lehman and the dictum which ostensibly precipitated the story in "The Star"? I'd love to see it.

"And Abberline's failure to grasp what Schwartz was saying about "Lipski" sounds like an impatient cop frustrated with a hard to understand interpreter."

Abberline clearly stated that he had questioned Schwartz closely on the point--to no avail.

"My opinion of Abberline's skill as an interviewer has slipped a notch."

Indeed? Have you read FGA's note, pp. 126 & 7 "Ultimate"?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

perception of danger

Hello Harry.

"If 'Pipeman' himself was scared, why didn't he precede Schwartz in fleeing the scene?"

People perceive "danger" at different rates.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

errata

Hello MB. Thanks.

"It was earlier!"

Indeed. And . . .?

". . . and we have no idea how long PM was stood there. . ."

Well, how long does it take to light a pipe, given average competence at it?

"According to Schwartz's press statement he was."

You mean BSM shouting at PM?

"Not his missus, Lynn, BSM's missus."

Are you seriously suggesting that BSM was married to Liz? A secret union perhaps? And so he accidentally ran across her in Berner?

"Not sure where you get from Lynn?"

PM fled the scene, just as Schwartz did.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

difficulties

Hello CD. Thanks.

Yes, translation (any language) makes for difficulties.

cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

plus ultra

Hello Scott. Thanks.

Yes, his testimony is fraught with ambiguity. Little wonder the Lehman lads sought more evidence before agreeing to proceed.

Cheers.
LC

[Paddy]

Another Lipski family

Also found Lewis's dad Moses AKA Barnett Lipskie, a furrier b 1820s in Poland.
He was living in Sandys Row Spitalfields, with family in 1881 census and 1891 census.
There were two other sons apart from Lewis, they were Rueben b1867 and Isaac b1870. I wonder if this was the family that Israel Lipski copied his name from? (It was said that he was not related though)

Pat....................