Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[DRoy]

Hello Roy. To be fair, Swanson notes that nothing in the report casts doubt on the story. Other than that . . .

Cheers.
LC

Lynn,

He (through Abberline) casts doubt on whether Schwartz witnessed the assult that led to her murder.

Swanson like Abberline might have believed his story which is where the 'no doubt' comes from. No matter how much he told the truth about his story, if he couldn't identify Stride (which he didn't until after giving his statement) then perhaps the 'no doubt' only had to do with his story not the identification.

That wouldn't lessen the value of seeing an assult in the spot where 15 minutes Stride is actually murdered. Could it have been one or both of the men that 15 minutes previously assulted a 'woman'?

Cheers
DRoy

[lynn cates]

story

Hello Roy. To be fair, Swanson notes that nothing in the report casts doubt on the story. Other than that . . .

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Dr John ,

I've always thought this was on the same side as Schwartz, but I don't know whether there's a pub there; there does appear to be a commercial establishment on the opposite corner,

Yes John , The commercial establishment on the opposite corner was indeed the Nelson pub .. I agree totally with the scenario you describe here ..

cheers , moonbegger .

[Dr. John Watson]

Regarding where Schwartz was situated on Berner Street, his Press statement seems to indicate he turned onto Berner from Commercial Road and noticed Stride's attacker in front of him, acting as though he was intoxicated. This is on the same side as Dutfield's Yard. When he sees the man ahead of him accost a woman, he crosses to the opposite side of the street to avoid getting involved - don't know directions, but this would be the same side as the board school. He never crosses back to the other side. He sees a second man come out of a public house. I've always thought this was on the same side as Schwartz, but I don't know whether there's a pub there; there does appear to be a commercial establishment on the opposite corner, and no reason why "pipe man" didn't emerge from there. At any rate, Schwartz may have been just passing Dutfield's when the second man appeared, saw a guy attacking Stride, and shouted out "Lipski," perhaps in a joking manner. He might have looked toward Schwartz at the same time, causing the witness to become afraid and hasten away.

Incidentally, police files indicate that the "second man" was never identified or located.

John

[moonbegger]

The CSI book also confirms , the Nelson pub is a few doors down from the yard .. On Berner Street ..

moonbegger

[moonbegger]

HaHa , No worry's John . I thought we had stumbled upon something new

Moonbegger

[Dr. John Watson]

Hello Dr John , If this Is correct then surely Warren made a huge mistake when forwarding his account .. Warren would have us believe that the man who threw the woman down called out , and not the Pipe man in the doorway ?

It is the press account that has Pipe man calling out , just like you say Abberline wrote in his official report ?? is this correct ?

Cheers , Moonbegger

Sorry Moon. It was my mistake. It should have read " . . . himself or the second man. . . ." The police said Schwartz told them it was the assailant who shouted, and Abberline apparently accepted that statement without further question. His interrogation of Schwartz concerned only who the assailant was shouting at - him or the second man. Schwartz, of course, said it was the second man who "shouted out a warning" to Stride's attacker in the Star version of his account. If this is the truth, it would certainly account for Schwartz being confused when Abberline kept asking him if the "Lipski" shout was directed toward him or the second man!

John

[moonbegger]

PS .. Take a look at the picture of Berner street .. on the Corner a few doors down from Dutfields yard .. is that not the pub ?

[moonbegger]

This is how I read it Dave .. Both of these reports are from Schwartz perspective .. He is on the opposite side of the road (opposite Dutfields) when he first notices PM stood in the doorway of the corner pub ( pipe man would have been hidden from view when he was on his original side [the right] )

The man who threw the woman down called out, apparently to the man on the oppos- ite side of the road, 'Lipski',

At this point , Schwartz is saying " the man who threw the woman down called out to the man on the opposite side of the road from me " . Schwarz was on one side of the road , and the person ( in fact Both men & Liz were all on the other side of the road ) from him .

but just as he stepped from the kerb a second man came out of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman,

Once again , Schwartz perspective , and apart from , Who said what , All the players are in the same position , just worded slightly different .

Cheers , moonbegger .

[DRoy]

Hi everyone,

- The newspaper version is not quoted for a reason.
- Schwartz is only named the Hungarian in the newspaper version...why not name your source?
- The police version didn't have Schwartz's description of Stride in it. It is only after giving his statement to the police and after seeing her body that he states that it is the same woman he saw being assulted. The newspaper version doesn't have a description either from Schwartz...why not? He at this time could have described her exactly as he saw her in the mortuary since this discussion took place after the police version was taken.

It would be my suggestion that someone from the police station gave a garbled version to the reporter. I'm not going to get in to guessing games as to whom it could have been but it seems like a story that's been passed down the line a couple times. In my opinion there was no reporter that managed to chase down Schwartz.

For the record, even the Star version states "The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted."

This bring up another interesting point. How much did Swanson actually believe Schwartz? Plus, if Abbeline is the one who suggested that Schwartz may not have witnessed the murder taking place because of the time discrepancy, how much value did he really put in Schwartz?

We may be able to tell a little bit by Swanson's summary and how he doesn't use Stride's name in the summary from Schwartz. He uses 'woman' instead of Stride but why? If Schwartz identified the body as the person he saw being assulted as Stride, why doesn't Swanson use her name?

To me it makes it sound as if Swanson (through Abberline) didn't necessarily believe that Schwartz saw Stride being assulted but that due to him seeing an assult on a woman he still may be able to provide something of value (like maybe PM and or BS killed Stride minutes later). Makes perfect logical sense, and fits within the evidence in every way.

Cheers
DRoy

[lynn cates]

Nelson

Hello Dave. I think the Nelson was also on the west of Berner.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

west

Hello MB. Thanks.

Abberline seems to understand--as I do--that BSM and Liz were on the west side of Berner, as was Schwartz and PM. Schwartz, to avoid the fracas, moved east across Berner. Then he caught sight of PM, also west but across Fairclough.

If the story is true. . .

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

honest

Hello John. Thanks for posting that.

SPE should be lauded for including the caveat about honesty.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Opposite side of the road from Schwartz !!! Positioning PM correctly on the opposite side of the road , The same side of the road as Liz & her assailant, The same side that Schwartz press statement puts pipe/knife man ..

Hi MB

I must admit I always envisaged Schwartz as being on the right (Dutfields) side of the road, crossing diagonally near Dutfields towards the opposite side, and then seeing Pipeman on that same side of Berners he just reached ie the opposite side to Dutfields...implying that whoever called out to whom, they called across the road...

Some ambiguity arises, however, because this takes place by a corner of a crossroads between Berners and Fairclough...so when "opposite" side is mentioned, does it mean the opposite side of Berners to that which he started from, the opposite side of Berners to that which he's just reached, or perhaps the same side of Berners he's just reached but on the opposite side of Fairclough Street...

All the best

Dave

[moonbegger]

Hello MB. Thanks.

That is from "The Star"?

Quoting apparently from Abberline's interrogation, Swanson said, "The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road 'Lipski'. . . . "
LC

Opposite side of the road from Schwartz !!! Positioning PM correctly on the opposite side of the road , The same side of the road as Liz & her assailant, The same side that Schwartz press statement puts pipe/knife man .. But what is interesting , if Dr J is quoting Abberline's report correctly , is who said what ? Did Abberline confirm the press statement that PM called out , Authenticating the Press statement , and exposing Warrens report as a mistake ? Any takers ?

moonbegger