Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi DRoy,

I think 'mistaken' would be more likely than 'full of it' myself. Schwartz doesn't come out of it all that well by identifying Stride and admitting he bolted rather than making sure BSM wasn't doing her serious harm.

But yes, it's always possible that he saw another woman being shoved a bit, and afterwards put two and two together and made five.

Love,

Caz
X

Its an interesting idea Caz if we look at the individual components of what happened in Berner street that night...But we are not

We are looking at the sum of all the accounts and the most probable and likely senarios..

Blackwell places the time of death most probably at 12.50

And Schwartz witness the attack at 12.45-6

If you add in the factor of Stride bleeding to death its almost impossible that the event described by Schwartz was NOT her murder.

I admire your defence for another killer but really...its an outside, out there senario, at best if you take into account the actual sequence of events listed by the known witnesses

Trust you both cool

Jeff

[FrankO]

And if we assume they did , ( would they ? ) the fact that Swanson still concluded it was a pipe in his Oct 19 summary , must add weight to the pipe theory .. Wish I never opened this particular Pandora's box

In fact, Moonbegger, Abberline still stuck to the "lighting of a pipe" in a report he wrote on 1 November.

All the best,
Frank

[Wickerman]

Hi Lynn.

Hello GUT. Thanks.

Possibly because it is so contrived. There is absolutely no evidence that yet another party was involved.

Cheers.
LC

Which is the same situation in all the murders.
Whoever the killer was he left not a trace, 'we' have to invent this mysterious killer in every murder.

[lynn cates]

party

Hello Caroline. Thanks.

"It's hardly a theory, Lynn, short of magicking Schwartz from history. If you take him out of your own equation as an unreliable source, what are you left with but a swift, silent and efficient murder by someone who knew what he was doing, but had no apparent motive to do it?'

Same as when we leave him in?

"Why not? Just down from the main Commercial Rd, any woman hanging around a club entrance at that time of night could have been subjected to criticism, insult, abuse or ill-use, if not lewd comments or propositions. And we know Stride was there, alone. How would any passing male or club attendee know if her reasons were entirely respectable?"

Testimony made Berner look a bit deserted. Perhaps the testimonies were false?

"We don't know that PM 'bolted', nor how far."

Agreed. That was merely Schwartz's story.

"If he was the killer he could have seen his opportunity when BSM manhandled Stride, but had to make sure Schwartz was spooked before sending BSM packing and going in for the kill himself."

But Israel did not even linger. He was leaving the scene of action. Why not just hold your ground and wait a few more seconds?

"I don't see why a fourth man could not have been lurking, perhaps inside the club entrance, out of sight of Schwartz, BSM and PM. After all, if you don't believe Schwartz was there, or that BSM or PM existed, then the fourth man simply becomes the first and only for you."

Put that way, fine.

"So how is it 'contrived' for others to consider the possibility of 'yet another party', when that's exactly what you are proposing by rejecting BSM, PM and JtR? Your killer must be 'yet another party', mustn't he?"

Again, that's fine. Just not comfortable with the "party" atmosphere which Schwartz's story, in conjunction with unknown others, conjures up.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

inventions

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Of course, the only inventions for which I have a taste are Bach's--and those for the harpsichord.

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Of course, the only inventions for which I have a taste are Bach's--and those for the harpsichord.

Cheers.
LC

I'd stick with the Mozart if I were you Lynn..

Of course the Fourth man is NOT completely Impossible. Hes just unlikely for the following:

Fanny Mortimer said she was at her door between 12.30 and 1.00 for no more than ten minutes. And the only person she saw was Goldstien. Goldstein passed at 12.55. So it places Fanny at her door approx 12.50-1 am

She came out having heard someone pass her door. She thought a policeman but none were passing at this time so its possible she heard the killer.

Strides body was a few feet inside the ally and thus not vissable to Fanny or Goldstein.

Blackwell estimates Strides time of death as 12.50. So the most probable conclusion is that Stride was attacked before Fanny came to the door.

Stride was probably not killed before 12.45 as Brown saw her with a man (Possibly pipeman)

As Schwartz enters Berner Street the same time as Brown leaves the shop, both mens estimates are possible as it takes Schwartz 45 seconds or so for schwartz, to walk to Dutfield yard.

ANd neither man would see each other due to their POV even though they give the same time 12.45

There is thus a 3 or 4minute window for BSM to attack Stride cut her throat and walk back up past Fannys door before she comes to the door.

None of the witness see anyone else so a FOUTH man is simply invention.

That doesnt mean he does NOT exist. Just that its improbable as all the pieces of the Jig Saw fit together without having to invent him.

Its what FAnny doesnt see rather than what she does see that makes her such an important witness. She doesn't see Stride. She doesn't see Brown, Schawartz or Pipeman. Yet she is at her door for almost the entire window suggested for events.

The only other possibility is someone inside the club or going into Dutfield yard.

The reason so many theorists don't like to face the FACTS is that it leaves one person who definately had a good view of Jack the Ripper. Schwartz.

Lawende after all claims he would not recognise the man again.

So we have to face the possiblity that "Unsolved crimes in London are rare and the Jack teh Ripper murders are not within that catigory"

And thats the really hard beef for so many ripperologist to swallow.

Yours Jeff

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Of course, the only inventions for which I have a taste are Bach's--and those for the harpsichord.

Cheers.
LC

Ah, I do understand your reservations, but without a dabble of creative thinking (invention?), how can you place Issenschmid at any murder scene?

[lynn cates]

ripping yarn

Hello Jeff. Thanks. Of course, Mozart did not write inventions. The two and three part inventions are amongst Bach's work.

I agree with much that you say. An extra man is a fabrication.

But if Schwartz did see the ripper, then BSM is he. But BSM clearly did no ripping.

Love's labour lost?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

"Mein Vater war ein Wandersmann . . ."

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Actually, more imagination is required to find a street where a man has NOT wandered when he has been at it for 10 weeks.

Cheers.
LC

[Dr. John Watson]

Fanny Mortimer said she was at her door between 12.30 and 1.00 for no more than ten minutes. And the only person she saw was Goldstien. Goldstein passed at 12.55. So it places Fanny at her door approx 12.50-1 am

Jeff, could you give me your source for the information that Goldstein passed at 12:55?

Thanks.

John

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff, could you give me your source for the information that Goldstein passed at 12:55?

Thanks.

John

Hi Dr Watson

My source would obviously be the documentary Jack the Ripper the Definitive Story which highlights the event in detail.

The sound track for which is based on Motzart's requiem

The documentary was based on the updated information of Paul Beggs, Martin Fido's and Keith Skinners most recent A to Z.

Unfortunately my home was some what flooded Xmas day and i am currently in wales waiting for my home to dry and without much source information.

But I would suggest looking up Gouldstein, who went to the police the following day, will give you precise source information.

Trust that helps

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

But BSM clearly did no ripping.

Cheers.
LC

Schwartz did not say that he witnessed BSM rip stride.

But Schwartz was clearly desturbed enough to go to police about the event. He spoke no english so what ever he saw was subject to an interpreter.

Hardly surprising the accounts are confused.

But thats all that can be said

Yours Jeff

[lynn cates]

agreed

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

Actually, I agree. We can't really say much about the Schwartz story. That is why I leave him in brackets.

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Hello Jeff ,

Stride was probably not killed before 12.45 as Brown saw her with a man (Possibly pipeman)

But Still , Browns description ( Broad shouldered & five and half (ish) feet tall ) bares a stronger resemblance to Schwartz BSM than it does PM .

Your timetable also allows for the possibility of Browns man , a (BSM) to walk across to the yard with Liz .. get rejected ( again ) then head up Berners St towards CR , before turning back around mid way , to take out his aggression on Liz , who is still stood by the club . ( this is also the point that Schwartz , turns into the street ) witnessing the man in front of him , who is in fact now walking back down Berners towards his recent rejection .

moonbegger .

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff ,


But Still , Browns description ( Broad shouldered & five and half (ish) feet tall ) bares a stronger resemblance to Schwartz BSM than it does PM .

Your timetable also allows for the possibility of Browns man , a (BSM) to walk across to the yard with Liz .. get rejected ( again ) then head up Berners St towards CR , before turning back around mid way , to take out his aggression on Liz , who is still stood by the club . ( this is also the point that Schwartz , turns into the street ) witnessing the man in front of him , who is in fact now walking back down Berners towards his recent rejection .

moonbegger .

Possibly Moonbegger, but Schwartz describes turning into berner street and following a man walking as if drunk..Star report

So it seems more probable that both men were heading in the same direction Commercial street to Dutfield yard.

I have however postulated the possibility that Stride left the man Brown witnessed.. 'Not tonight some other night' and turned and crossed the road towards Dutfield yard. Brown would have had his back to this happening as he passed the couple. So its a possibiity? This might support a man standing out of sight from everyone on the side of the street opposite the Nelson pub, which some have speculated matches Swansons account of events. This would also send the chase of pipeman and Schwartz down fairclough street rather than Berner street. Explaining why shcwartz rwan past his lodgings to teh railway arch.

I found the following on 'Casebook' but nothing in Wikki?
No confirmation about where the 12.55 time comes from, as i mentioned I currently have no access to my reference books, so I'm working from memory but fairly certain 12.55 was the time Gouldstein gave.

Yours Jeff

Leon Goldstein - (Stride)

On the Monday following Stride's murder, it was reported that Mrs. Fanny Mortimer saw a man pass by, carrying a black bag:
"the only person whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast from the direction of Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School." (DT 1 Oct pg5)
Leon Goldstein learned of this and presented himself to the Leman Street Police Station, as the man seen by Mortimer (A-Z 1996 ed pg144-145):
"The man with a black shiny bag who was wanted for having been seen in Berner-street under suspicious circumstances just before the murder turns out to be a respectable man who fully explains his conduct." (Star 3 Oct pg2)

"Reports have been circulated this week of a man having been seen in the streets with a black bag about the time of the murders; but suspicion was removed by a young traveller named Goldstein coming forward and stating that he was in Berner-street." (Lloyd's Weekly News 7 Oct pg7)
Goldstein's actions have no bearing on the case; yet, Mortimer's mentioning him is very likely responsible for creating the rumor that the killer carried a black bag, which is often portrayed in modern theatrics (A-Z 1996 ed pg145).