Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[moonbegger]

Hi MB

Yes that was always my understanding too, and the map in CSI does show it there...but when you look at the famous Berner Street photo, the establishment actually looks more like a shop...and after all, the witness James Brown was going to get his supper from a chandlers store on the corner of Berners with Fairclough, so I wonder which corner, each establishment occupied.

The North east corner was a school I believe...the rest I wonder...

Cheers

Dave

Hello Dave , yes that is indeed an odd one .. I have always believed it to be the Pub . Does anyone know for certain ?

I think the Chandlers shop Brown visited was indeed Mathew Packers ( grocers) at 44 Berners St ( Right next to the Pub ) Not exactly the corner but close enough , And whats the chances of having two grocers next door to each other . He mentions walking past the couple " As I passed them I heard the woman say, "No, not to-night, some other night." That made me turn round, and I looked at them. I am certain the woman was the deceased." as he would have making his way along Fairclough street to the Grocers . also Packer said he closed his Grocers shop at 12.30am , which would tie it together .

moonbegger

[Wickerman]

I think the Chandlers shop Brown visited was indeed Mathew Packers ( grocers) at 44 Berners St ( Right next to the Pub )...

I think you'll find that Packer's business was not a chandlery, he only sold fruit through an open window in his home.

[moonbegger]

I think you'll find that Packer's business was not a chandlery, he only sold fruit through an open window in his home.

What is a Chandlery John ? I thought it was also a general Grocers .. Is there no possibility that Brown was referring to Packers ?

Cheers , moonbegger

[Tom_Wescott]

Here's an excerpt from an excellent article published years ago in Ripper Notes that gives a tour of Berner Street as it was at the time:

Turning our attention to the south-west, we walk across the cobbles of Fairclough Street and end up standing at the door of Henry Norris’ chandler’s shop, witness James Brown’s favorite spot when he fancied a late night supper. Norris’ shop at #48 marked the start of what, in years past, been known as Upper Berner Street, stretching from the Fairclough Street intersection and running about 110 yards in a straight line until Berner Street meets its end at Ellen Street.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello all,

Does anyone have anything to say about my theory the newspaper version actually came from a police source and not from Schwartz directly? Not one comment yet...

That's your idea?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Here's an excerpt from an excellent article published years ago in Ripper Notes that gives a tour of Berner Street as it was at the time:

Turning our attention to the south-west, we walk across the cobbles of Fairclough Street and end up standing at the door of Henry Norris’ chandler’s shop, witness James Brown’s favorite spot when he fancied a late night supper. Norris’ shop at #48 marked the start of what, in years past, been known as Upper Berner Street, stretching from the Fairclough Street intersection and running about 110 yards in a straight line until Berner Street meets its end at Ellen Street.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Just to put it in perspective, if you were Pipeman standing outside the Nelson and you were looking at Schwartz, you'd be looking at the board school. If you turned your head 80 degrees you'd now be looking straight across Fairclough Street and at Norris' chandler's shop. So, when Brown left this shop, he crossed Fairclough Street diagonally in order to end up on the Board School side where he saw his couple. For only a few seconds would he have had a view of lower Berner Street where he apparently saw no one or nothing of note. This means that Schwartz and BS Man had either not arrived yet or had just passed through. There was no 'young couple' on Berner Street at the time as you often see on the boards and in some books. That couple had not been on the street for 45 minutes or so by that time. So the woman Brown saw was probably Stride.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[moonbegger]

Moon,

So your answer is they got the info from the police? You're telling me the police gave a description of Schwartz, not his name of course, and roughly were to find him (not at his home) and the reporter managed to find him? Even though he would have been told to not talk to the press the first thing he does is talk to the press?
DRoy

Its really not that incomprehensible is it ? "The man your looking for lives here , but keep his name out of the paper, or that'll be your last tip"
Yet you have no problems believing a Policeman gave the press the Interpreters details .. Obviously the Police gave out information about the visit , or how else would the press got wind of it in the first place ..

Even though he would have been told to not talk to the press

You sound very certain about that .. do you have proof to back it up ?

Cheers , moonbegger

[moonbegger]

Just to put it in perspective, if you were Pipeman standing outside the Nelson and you were looking at Schwartz, you'd be looking at the board school. If you turned your head 80 degrees you'd now be looking straight across Fairclough Street and at Norris' chandler's shop. So, when Brown left this shop, he crossed Fairclough Street diagonally in order to end up on the Board School side where he saw his couple. For only a few seconds would he have had a view of lower Berner Street where he apparently saw no one or nothing of note. This means that Schwartz and BS Man had either not arrived yet or had just passed through. There was no 'young couple' on Berner Street at the time as you often see on the boards and in some books. That couple had not been on the street for 45 minutes or so by that time. So the woman Brown saw was probably Stride.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Thanks Tom , At long last , we have Clarity

cheers , moonbegger

[Tom_Wescott]

My views on the Star piece are this...

Either it was planted by the police, or the Star reporter paid a copper for the info...which happened ALL the time.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cogidubnus]

Turning our attention to the south-west, we walk across the cobbles of Fairclough Street and end up standing at the door of Henry Norris’ chandler’s shop, witness James Brown’s favorite spot when he fancied a late night supper. Norris’ shop at #48 marked the start of what, in years past, been known as Upper Berner Street, stretching from the Fairclough Street intersection and running about 110 yards in a straight line until Berner Street meets its end at Ellen Street.

Hi Tom

I certainly don't disbelieve you, but some contemporary sources please

Dave

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom

I certainly don't disbelieve you, but some contemporary sources please

Dave

Business listings and whatnot. That's how know who owned what. And Norris' is the only chandler's shop there. Packer did not have a chandler shop and was closed up by 12:45am.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Dr. John Watson]

Just to put it in perspective, if you were Pipeman standing outside the Nelson and you were looking at Schwartz, you'd be looking at the board school. If you turned your head 80 degrees you'd now be looking straight across Fairclough Street and at Norris' chandler's shop. So, when Brown left this shop, he crossed Fairclough Street diagonally in order to end up on the Board School side where he saw his couple. For only a few seconds would he have had a view of lower Berner Street where he apparently saw no one or nothing of note. This means that Schwartz and BS Man had either not arrived yet or had just passed through. There was no 'young couple' on Berner Street at the time as you often see on the boards and in some books. That couple had not been on the street for 45 minutes or so by that time. So the woman Brown saw was probably Stride.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom. Given that the times are approximate, there only has to be an error of 1-3 minutes on the part of either Brown and/or Schwartz for both sightings to have occurred as described in their statements. Assuming both men are telling the truth as they recall it (and there's no reason to doubt this), it seems more likely that Brown passed the couple at the Board School two or three minutes minutes before the assault on Stride occurred, sufficient time for Stride to have left the man she was with and cross to the spot where Schwartz witnessed her being assaulted. We don't know how long the assault went on, probably only a few minutes, which would leave eight to ten minutes for the murder to occur and her body to be discovered.

John

[harry]

I do not believe Pipeman was running/walking from BS,or that he was chasing Schwartz.What I believe is that in the dim light of Berner Street,he sees Schwartz cross the road from where the altercation was taking place,and merely wanted to stop him to enquire exactly what was taking place,and gave up when Schwartz ran.
It seems from Schwartz statement,that after crossing the road and in the act of leaving,he heard the sound of raised voices issuing from the gateway,an indication to me that that the fracas,whatever it was,had developed into a slanging match,and not a protracted physical encounter.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom. Given that the times are approximate, there only has to be an error of 1-3 minutes on the part of either Brown and/or Schwartz for both sightings to have occurred as described in their statements. Assuming both men are telling the truth as they recall it (and there's no reason to doubt this), it seems more likely that Brown passed the couple at the Board School two or three minutes minutes before the assault on Stride occurred, sufficient time for Stride to have left the man she was with and cross to the spot where Schwartz witnessed her being assaulted. We don't know how long the assault went on, probably only a few minutes, which would leave eight to ten minutes for the murder to occur and her body to be discovered.

John

Hi John. I too believe both incidents happened. And Brown's man was probably Pipeman. It then becomes a chicken and egg question - which happened first, Schwartz or Brown? We're inclined to think Brown came first, because vice verse means BS Man was not her killer. But who knows?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[moonbegger]

Browns Man ..
"The man was described as being about 5ft 7in tall and stoutly built, wearing a long overcoat which went down almost to his heels. He was wearing a hat, but Brown was unable to describe it. It was quite dark, so he could not tell if the woman was wearing a flower on her jacket, but both appeared sober."

Schwartz PM
"Second man: age, 35; ht., 5 ft 11in; comp., fresh; hair, light brown; dress, dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat, wide brim; had a clay pipe in his hand."

Interesting though .. did Schwartz re-confirm the fact that it was a Pipe and not a Knife with his description ?

Schwartz BSM .
"He thus describes the first man, who threw the woman down:- age, about 30; ht, 5 ft 5 in; comp., fair; hair, dark; small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak, and nothing in his hands."

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that BSM was infact also browns BSM man .. Who may have left her , walked up Batty st then decided to return , not wishing to take no for an answer ?

moonbegger