Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[moonbegger]

Just to put it in perspective, if you were Pipeman standing outside the Nelson and you were looking at Schwartz, you'd be looking at the board school. If you turned your head 80 degrees you'd now be looking straight across Fairclough Street and at Norris' chandler's shop. So, when Brown left this shop, he crossed Fairclough Street diagonally in order to end up on the Board School side where he saw his couple. For only a few seconds would he have had a view of lower Berner Street where he apparently saw no one or nothing of note. This means that Schwartz and BS Man had either not arrived yet or had just passed through. There was no 'young couple' on Berner Street at the time as you often see on the boards and in some books. That couple had not been on the street for 45 minutes or so by that time. So the woman Brown saw was probably Stride.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Thanks Tom , At long last , we have Clarity

cheers , moonbegger

[moonbegger]

Moon,

So your answer is they got the info from the police? You're telling me the police gave a description of Schwartz, not his name of course, and roughly were to find him (not at his home) and the reporter managed to find him? Even though he would have been told to not talk to the press the first thing he does is talk to the press?
DRoy

Its really not that incomprehensible is it ? "The man your looking for lives here , but keep his name out of the paper, or that'll be your last tip"
Yet you have no problems believing a Policeman gave the press the Interpreters details .. Obviously the Police gave out information about the visit , or how else would the press got wind of it in the first place ..

Even though he would have been told to not talk to the press

You sound very certain about that .. do you have proof to back it up ?

Cheers , moonbegger

[Tom_Wescott]

Here's an excerpt from an excellent article published years ago in Ripper Notes that gives a tour of Berner Street as it was at the time:

Turning our attention to the south-west, we walk across the cobbles of Fairclough Street and end up standing at the door of Henry Norris’ chandler’s shop, witness James Brown’s favorite spot when he fancied a late night supper. Norris’ shop at #48 marked the start of what, in years past, been known as Upper Berner Street, stretching from the Fairclough Street intersection and running about 110 yards in a straight line until Berner Street meets its end at Ellen Street.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Just to put it in perspective, if you were Pipeman standing outside the Nelson and you were looking at Schwartz, you'd be looking at the board school. If you turned your head 80 degrees you'd now be looking straight across Fairclough Street and at Norris' chandler's shop. So, when Brown left this shop, he crossed Fairclough Street diagonally in order to end up on the Board School side where he saw his couple. For only a few seconds would he have had a view of lower Berner Street where he apparently saw no one or nothing of note. This means that Schwartz and BS Man had either not arrived yet or had just passed through. There was no 'young couple' on Berner Street at the time as you often see on the boards and in some books. That couple had not been on the street for 45 minutes or so by that time. So the woman Brown saw was probably Stride.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello all,

Does anyone have anything to say about my theory the newspaper version actually came from a police source and not from Schwartz directly? Not one comment yet...

That's your idea?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Here's an excerpt from an excellent article published years ago in Ripper Notes that gives a tour of Berner Street as it was at the time:

Turning our attention to the south-west, we walk across the cobbles of Fairclough Street and end up standing at the door of Henry Norris’ chandler’s shop, witness James Brown’s favorite spot when he fancied a late night supper. Norris’ shop at #48 marked the start of what, in years past, been known as Upper Berner Street, stretching from the Fairclough Street intersection and running about 110 yards in a straight line until Berner Street meets its end at Ellen Street.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[moonbegger]

I think you'll find that Packer's business was not a chandlery, he only sold fruit through an open window in his home.

What is a Chandlery John ? I thought it was also a general Grocers .. Is there no possibility that Brown was referring to Packers ?

Cheers , moonbegger

[Wickerman]

I think the Chandlers shop Brown visited was indeed Mathew Packers ( grocers) at 44 Berners St ( Right next to the Pub )...

I think you'll find that Packer's business was not a chandlery, he only sold fruit through an open window in his home.

[moonbegger]

Hi MB

Yes that was always my understanding too, and the map in CSI does show it there...but when you look at the famous Berner Street photo, the establishment actually looks more like a shop...and after all, the witness James Brown was going to get his supper from a chandlers store on the corner of Berners with Fairclough, so I wonder which corner, each establishment occupied.

The North east corner was a school I believe...the rest I wonder...

Cheers

Dave

Hello Dave , yes that is indeed an odd one .. I have always believed it to be the Pub . Does anyone know for certain ?

I think the Chandlers shop Brown visited was indeed Mathew Packers ( grocers) at 44 Berners St ( Right next to the Pub ) Not exactly the corner but close enough , And whats the chances of having two grocers next door to each other . He mentions walking past the couple " As I passed them I heard the woman say, "No, not to-night, some other night." That made me turn round, and I looked at them. I am certain the woman was the deceased." as he would have making his way along Fairclough street to the Grocers . also Packer said he closed his Grocers shop at 12.30am , which would tie it together .

moonbegger

[Cogidubnus]

Swanson is supposed to do a summary, not write a story for the public.

Hi DRoy

Yes you're quite correct in this at least...this comes from Swanson's precis of the case so far dated 19th October 1888, almost three weeks after the murder...it is, therefore, something upon the lines of a progress report...or a defence regarding a lack of progress if you like...hence the subsequent statement that there were so far "994 dockets besides police reports".

All the best

Dave

[DRoy]

Droy ..


Are these your questions ??? I have addressed everything

Sounds like you are in the ring , with your gloves on , but no one to fight !

If anything DRoy, I have given you a lot more help to support your theory .

moonbegger .

Moon,

So your answer is they got the info from the police? You're telling me the police gave a description of Schwartz, not his name of course, and roughly were to find him (not at his home) and the reporter managed to find him? Even though he would have been told to not talk to the press the first thing he does is talk to the press?

No need to answer Moon. You've convinced me.

Cheers
DRoy

[lynn cates]

If you believe that, . . .

Hello John. Thanks.

Well, not obvious to ME. In my book, there was no serial killer nor did Schwartz tell the truth. I am merely showing the consequences of taking both nonsensical stories in conjunction.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

The commercial establishment on the opposite corner was indeed the Nelson pub

Hi MB

Yes that was always my understanding too, and the map in CSI does show it there...but when you look at the famous Berner Street photo, the establishment actually looks more like a shop...and after all, the witness James Brown was going to get his supper from a chandlers store on the corner of Berners with Fairclough, so I wonder which corner, each establishment occupied.

The North east corner was a school I believe...the rest I wonder...

Cheers

Dave

[moonbegger]

Droy ..

You have to assume he could have got at least one quote out of Schwartz. He didn't get his name nor quote him. How did he know what direction to go to track him down? How did he know what Schwartz looked like? Wouldn't Abberline have told him not to say a word to the press?

If the reporter did actually talk to Schwartz, he still would have had to get info on Schwartz from them so I don't see it any more far fetched the reporter got the entire story from them.

Are these your questions ??? I have addressed everything

Sounds like you are in the ring , with your gloves on , but no one to fight !

If anything DRoy, I have given you a lot more help to support your theory .

moonbegger .

[DRoy]

Moonbegger,

And you'll note that Swanson didn't include any quotes when he did the same thing .

Swanson is supposed to do a summary, not write a story for the public.

You didn't explain how your version would answer any of the questions I asked. If you can answer those questions just as easily as I have (the interview didn't happen) in your version then I'd be happy to reconsider my opinion.

Cheers
DRoy

[moonbegger]

On reflection , This could roll either way

"on turning into Berner Street from "Commercial Street" and "As he turned the corner from Commercial-road"

If it was taken down at the station as Commercial street , then was relayed as Commercial road to a third party, it would make sense because the person who relayed the information would have been fully aware that it was in fact Road and not street . A very subtle difference to a stranger , but a huge difference to someone who knows the area .