Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[moonbegger]

Hello MB. Thanks.

If timings are that far out, why adduce them at all?

Cheers.
LC

Hello lynn , my new approach is timing friendly ..

Also there is nothing to rule out this man walking around the corner with stride to Berner street , leaving her at the yard entrance , taking a few paces up Berner street towards Commercial road , before turning back to give her some abuse .. in fact both statements Schwartz ( Apparently made ) support this ..

moonbegger

[lynn cates]

pipe

Hello Tom.

"Stewart once produced a table prepared by the police that added the additional detail that the pipe was in Pipeman's mouth. I'd fairly say that rules out a knife."

Love to see that. The knife story does not sound credible--perhaps an afterthought by a reporter?

"I agree that Brown's man could not have been BS Man."

Splendid.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

tempus fugit

Hello MB. Thanks.

If timings are that far out, why adduce them at all?

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Moon. I think the coat suggests Brown's man was probably Pipeman. If not, then a different man altogether.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[moonbegger]

I agree that Brown's man could not have been BS Man.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom ,

I am curious as to why you would say " Could not have been "

Both Schwartz and Brown describe a BSM , almost same height , Both wearing hats ..

Also there is nothing to rule out this man walking around the corner with stride to Berner street , leaving her at the yard entrance , taking a few paces up Berner street towards Commercial road , before turning back to give her some abuse .. in fact both statements Schwartz ( Apparently made ) support this ..

on turning into Berner Street from Commercial Street and having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed, he saw a man stop and speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.

As he turned the corner from Commercial-road he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated.

cheers , moonbegger

[Tom_Wescott]

Interesting though .. did Schwartz re-confirm the fact that it was a Pipe and not a Knife with his description ?

Yes. Stewart once produced a table prepared by the police that added the additional detail that the pipe was in Pipeman's mouth. I'd fairly say that rules out a knife.

I agree that Brown's man could not have been BS Man.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[moonbegger]

Hello MB. It would be even better if he stopped off for a drink, so he could become tipsy, and had come down Berner from Commercial, and ALL in about 60 seconds.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn , I was unaware that Brown used a breathalyzer to determine how much BSM2 had to drink ..

the woman had her back to the wall, facing the man who had his arm up against it.

Arm up against the wall Maybe to stabilize himself .. If he was a little Tipsy ???

Browns man could have quite easily gone up batty St in a huff turned back down Berner st , all in the space of a few minutes , And we all know how reliable Victorian timings can be here !

cheers , moonbegger

[lynn cates]

better case scenario

Hello MB. It would be even better if he stopped off for a drink, so he could become tipsy, and had come down Berner from Commercial, and ALL in about 60 seconds.

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Browns Man ..
"The man was described as being about 5ft 7in tall and stoutly built, wearing a long overcoat which went down almost to his heels. He was wearing a hat, but Brown was unable to describe it. It was quite dark, so he could not tell if the woman was wearing a flower on her jacket, but both appeared sober."

Schwartz PM
"Second man: age, 35; ht., 5 ft 11in; comp., fresh; hair, light brown; dress, dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat, wide brim; had a clay pipe in his hand."

Interesting though .. did Schwartz re-confirm the fact that it was a Pipe and not a Knife with his description ?

Schwartz BSM .
"He thus describes the first man, who threw the woman down:- age, about 30; ht, 5 ft 5 in; comp., fair; hair, dark; small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak, and nothing in his hands."

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that BSM was infact also browns BSM man .. Who may have left her , walked up Batty st then decided to return , not wishing to take no for an answer ?

moonbegger

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom. Given that the times are approximate, there only has to be an error of 1-3 minutes on the part of either Brown and/or Schwartz for both sightings to have occurred as described in their statements. Assuming both men are telling the truth as they recall it (and there's no reason to doubt this), it seems more likely that Brown passed the couple at the Board School two or three minutes minutes before the assault on Stride occurred, sufficient time for Stride to have left the man she was with and cross to the spot where Schwartz witnessed her being assaulted. We don't know how long the assault went on, probably only a few minutes, which would leave eight to ten minutes for the murder to occur and her body to be discovered.

John

Hi John. I too believe both incidents happened. And Brown's man was probably Pipeman. It then becomes a chicken and egg question - which happened first, Schwartz or Brown? We're inclined to think Brown came first, because vice verse means BS Man was not her killer. But who knows?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[harry]

I do not believe Pipeman was running/walking from BS,or that he was chasing Schwartz.What I believe is that in the dim light of Berner Street,he sees Schwartz cross the road from where the altercation was taking place,and merely wanted to stop him to enquire exactly what was taking place,and gave up when Schwartz ran.
It seems from Schwartz statement,that after crossing the road and in the act of leaving,he heard the sound of raised voices issuing from the gateway,an indication to me that that the fracas,whatever it was,had developed into a slanging match,and not a protracted physical encounter.

[Dr. John Watson]

Just to put it in perspective, if you were Pipeman standing outside the Nelson and you were looking at Schwartz, you'd be looking at the board school. If you turned your head 80 degrees you'd now be looking straight across Fairclough Street and at Norris' chandler's shop. So, when Brown left this shop, he crossed Fairclough Street diagonally in order to end up on the Board School side where he saw his couple. For only a few seconds would he have had a view of lower Berner Street where he apparently saw no one or nothing of note. This means that Schwartz and BS Man had either not arrived yet or had just passed through. There was no 'young couple' on Berner Street at the time as you often see on the boards and in some books. That couple had not been on the street for 45 minutes or so by that time. So the woman Brown saw was probably Stride.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom. Given that the times are approximate, there only has to be an error of 1-3 minutes on the part of either Brown and/or Schwartz for both sightings to have occurred as described in their statements. Assuming both men are telling the truth as they recall it (and there's no reason to doubt this), it seems more likely that Brown passed the couple at the Board School two or three minutes minutes before the assault on Stride occurred, sufficient time for Stride to have left the man she was with and cross to the spot where Schwartz witnessed her being assaulted. We don't know how long the assault went on, probably only a few minutes, which would leave eight to ten minutes for the murder to occur and her body to be discovered.

John

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom

I certainly don't disbelieve you, but some contemporary sources please

Dave

Business listings and whatnot. That's how know who owned what. And Norris' is the only chandler's shop there. Packer did not have a chandler shop and was closed up by 12:45am.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cogidubnus]

Turning our attention to the south-west, we walk across the cobbles of Fairclough Street and end up standing at the door of Henry Norris’ chandler’s shop, witness James Brown’s favorite spot when he fancied a late night supper. Norris’ shop at #48 marked the start of what, in years past, been known as Upper Berner Street, stretching from the Fairclough Street intersection and running about 110 yards in a straight line until Berner Street meets its end at Ellen Street.

Hi Tom

I certainly don't disbelieve you, but some contemporary sources please

Dave

[Tom_Wescott]

My views on the Star piece are this...

Either it was planted by the police, or the Star reporter paid a copper for the info...which happened ALL the time.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott