Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[DRoy]

1. It requires two assaults on the exact same spot, and within less than ten minutes of one another. Moreover, they must be carried out in a similar fashion, with the exception of the throat cut.

Lynn,

What better place than one that is so dark and off the 'path'? Yes anyone could have come out but if a song were being sung would club members actually leave during that? Not even Diemschutz could see her and he was right over top of her. The street was quiet which could support or hinder the theory. Similar fashion based on your theory and reenactment?

2. It requires a good explanation concerning why the first lady never came forward to explain.

Any reason given would be speculative but I'm sure we both could come up with a lot of reasons.

3. It requires PM to stay quiet about what he saw.

Why? Even if it did, many believe Schwartz was sequestered partly for his safety so if PM knew of BSM's reputation or was a friend, neighbor, etc, etc perhaps he didn't come forward out of fear. We don't know what he saw either, perhaps the call of Lipski was enough to frighten him to run without him seeing anything worth reporting.

If Schwartz is to believed and apparently he was (which I again personally have never understood)...then why the 'woman' or PM or BSM never came forward must be for their own reasons but all this too would be speculation.

Cheers
DRoy

[lynn cates]

problems

Hello Roy. Thanks.

I agree that it could work. But here are the problems, I think.

1. It requires two assaults on the exact same spot, and within less than ten minutes of one another. Moreover, they must be carried out in a similar fashion, with the exception of the throat cut.

2. It requires a good explanation concerning why the first lady never came forward to explain.

3. It requires PM to stay quiet about what he saw.

Cheers.
LC

[DRoy]

Well, if she really fell . . .

Lynn,

If Schwartz witnessed a struggle instead of a maiming which seems obvious, the 'woman' could have been pushed down and Stride could have been killed in relatively the same spot 15 minutes later.

I'm aware of your theory and reenactment and I can see the theory I presented work perfectly fine with yours if it wasn't Stride Schwartz being assulted.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

It's clear from Schwartz's statement that BSM did commit an assault on Stride in front of the gateway to Dutfield's Yard, but it likely did not involve striking her with his fist or with a weapon. From what I recall of the autopsy, aside from the obvious throat wound and a fresh bruise on the shoulder, doctors found no marks of a recent physical assault on Stride's face or body. Thus, it's entirely possible that the encounter Schwartz witnessed was nothing more than a man trying to force Stride off the footway and into the yard and she falling to the ground while resisting him. This possibility, of course, does not let BSM off the hook. He still assaulted Stride and tried to force her into the very yard where she was later found murdered. He is still a viable suspect as Stride's killer.

DJW,

If you can accept that can you accept maybe Schwartz didn't see an assult on Stride but instead just a random 'woman'? There are threads about Stride's bruises, the mud on her clothes (or lack there of since you'd assume she'd have more after being pushed down), the cachous she didn't drop, etc which all don't quite add up to what Schwartz witnessed. I suggest you have a peak at those and see what you think...was it really Stride he saw?

Cheers
DRoy

[lynn cates]

bruising remarks

Hello GUT. Slight correction: bruise on shoulders--plural. The doctor thought this could be achieved by seizing her by the shoulders.

Of course, at inquest it was acknowledged that the bruises may have happened somewhat earlier.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

conditional logic

Hello John. Of course, Liz had bruises on BOTH shoulders. Perhaps she shoved her with both hands?

But I will agree with this, IF Schwartz told the truth, THEN BSM killed Liz.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

tangled case

Hello MB. Thanks.

My pleasure. And your colourful phrase apples to MUCH of the case. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

G'day Dr John

It's clear from Schwartz's statement that BSM did commit an assault on Stride in front of the gateway to Dutfield's Yard, but it likely did not involve striking her with his fist or with a weapon. From what I recall of the autopsy, aside from the obvious throat wound and a fresh bruise on the shoulder, doctors found no marks of a recent physical assault on Stride's face or body. Thus, it's entirely possible that the encounter Schwartz witnessed was nothing more than a man trying to force Stride off the footway and into the yard and she falling to the ground while resisting him. This possibility, of course, does not let BSM off the hook. He still assaulted Stride and tried to force her into the very yard where she was later found murdered. He is still a viable suspect as Stride's killer.

But even if BSM didn't kill her he May have been the cause of the bruise on her shoulder when he pushed her.

As the last person to have been seen with her alive he will always be a suspect unless more evidence comes to light.

[Dr. John Watson]

Lynn,

You know, maybe we've all put too much emphasis on the 'attack' Schwartz witnessed. What did he really see? What did he really hear? Maybe the word 'attack' is too tough a word. If that word is lessened then Schwartz is still of value for seeing a minor scuffle with a 'woman' and then the rest of my theory still fits.

Hi DRoy! I agree, and that's a very good point you bring up. Though I've often seen the term "attack" in print, and I've used it myself at times, what Schwartz describes sounds more like a struggle of some kind, or scuffle as you suggest - more a case of BSM trying to pull Liz into the yard and she falling or being pushed to the sidewalk while resisting, for instance. The two versions of Schwartz's statement differ on what he says about the assault itself:

The police version quotes him as stating that BSM ". . . tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her around and threw her down on the footway . . . ."

The Star report has Schwartz stating he saw BSM " . . . put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage . . . ." adding that he heard the "sound of a quarrel" behind him as he was leaving, but saying nothing about her being thrown down.

It's clear from Schwartz's statement that BSM did commit an assault on Stride in front of the gateway to Dutfield's Yard, but it likely did not involve striking her with his fist or with a weapon. From what I recall of the autopsy, aside from the obvious throat wound and a fresh bruise on the shoulder, doctors found no marks of a recent physical assault on Stride's face or body. Thus, it's entirely possible that the encounter Schwartz witnessed was nothing more than a man trying to force Stride off the footway and into the yard and she falling to the ground while resisting him. This possibility, of course, does not let BSM off the hook. He still assaulted Stride and tried to force her into the very yard where she was later found murdered. He is still a viable suspect as Stride's killer.

John

[moonbegger]

Ah Ha , Cheers Lynn .. Thanks for untangling my tangled up tangle

moonbegger

[lynn cates]

recipient

Hello MB. Thanks.

Yes, it was in Swanson's report.

Abberline's frustrations came from not knowing the RECIPIENT of "Lipski."

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Hello MB. Thanks.

Here is from Swanson:

"The man who threw the woman down called out . . . 'Lipski.'" (Ultimate, p. 122.)

Cheers.
LC

Yes Lynn, but was this not Swanson reporting merely what Schwartz via a translator had apparently said ..

Also Lynn , I had always believed this paragraph below to be attributed to the ( ultimate ) as opposed to Swanson ,

If Schwartz is to be believed, and the police report of his statement casts no doubt on it, it follows ... that the man Schwartz saw and described is the more probable of the two to be the murderer.

Which , if attributed to Swanson clearly validates your point , but if not , we are left with Abberline's doubts and frustrations .

So was it Swanson or the ultimate ?

cheers , moonbegger

[lynn cates]

B S M

Hello MB. Thanks.

Here is from Swanson:

"The man who threw the woman down called out . . . 'Lipski.'" (Ultimate, p. 122.)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

theory

Hello Caroline. Thanks.

And a fine theory it is, too.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

fell for it

Hello Roy. Thanks.

Well, if she really fell . . .

Cheers.
LC