Berner Street: No Plot, No Mystery

[Herlock Sholmes]

And that means that Louis was not telling the truth when said, in his own words, he arrived "precisely" at 1. So if he lied, or was very wrong about that,.

All that you’ve done yet again is that you’ve manipulated the evidence to create a situation where Louis didn’t get back at 1.00. But as we can see from the errors (to put it diplomatically) that you constantly make your motives are transparent and that the timings fit Louis returning at around 1.00 perfectly.

Louis was simply quoting the clock that he saw:

“On Saturday I left home about half-past eleven in the morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street.”

[Michael W Richards]

....So Eagle got to the police station at 1.10....

Thats some great detective work Herlock. And what time did Johnson say he was there? 3 or 4 minutes before Blackwell, who isnt being disputed as having arrived at "1:16am" as he stated.

So Johnson gets there, awake and dressed within just 3 or 4 minutes huh? Amazing. After first being woken from sleep at just after 1:10? Was Johnson living in those stables I wonder, since no human could have been there that quickly if not as close as that.

And Lamb says that he saw Eagle at, or just before 1am, yet you claim in post # that Lamb actually saw him at 5 after 1. Wow....did you find another quote from him that states that, or are you just making s*** up as you go again?

Just so we all stay on page with you....Lambs wrong on his time, Johnsons wrong on his time, Spooner is contradicted by himself?..(that one is a doozy), Hescheberg is wrong with his time, Issac Kozebrodski is wrong with not only his time but whom he went searching with, Blackwells times is wrong, and so is Phillips. Its just good old Herlock that has all the times corrected now by simply negating what the witnesses actually said about the time and inserting what times work for Herlock.... Whew. Glad thats settled.
Sarcasm aside, I think what we all should trust is that when Herlock says he has figured things out..............

Using actual evidence in this case solves nothing for you, right Herly? Just change all the reliable times and insert all the anarchist ones. Everones happy.

Truly pathetic.

[Michael W Richards]

All that you’ve done yet again is that you’ve manipulated the evidence to create a situation where Louis didn’t get back at 1.00. But as we can see from the errors (to put it diplomatically) that you constantly make your motives are transparent and that the timings fit Louis returning at around 1.00 perfectly.

Louis was simply quoting the clock that he saw:

“On Saturday I left home about half-past eleven in the morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street.”

By the way, the preponderance of evidence available says that there are 2 people, who were inside the club and had clock access, say they were with Louis over the body in the passageway around 12:40, an additional witness says he was there about 12:35.. Yet he did not have any reference point for time and can be given leeway on the exact time he was at the gates, and all of these people could see each other at those times. No-one sees Louis arrive or when, no one sees Eagle arrive...or when, and Lamb did not say he first saw Eaqle at around 1:05. He said, at the Inquest, transcribed by a Daily Tegraph reporter on Wednes the 3rd, ..."Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting."

Stop putting your own words in witness mouths please,... they never, ever gave times you now want to assign to their own statements, and secondly they can speak for themselves. And did.

[Kattrup]

So Johnson gets there, awake and dressed within just 3 or 4 minutes huh? Amazing. After first being woken from sleep at just after 1:10? Was Johnson living in those stables I wonder, since no human could have been there that quickly if not as close as that.
.

Hello Michael

is there any indication that Johnston was asleep at the time? He mentions Blackwell was in bed but why do you think Johnston was?

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael

is there any indication that Johnston was asleep at the time? He mentions Blackwell was in bed but why do you think Johnston was?

Since it is after 1am its hardly a stretch that he would be retired when Constable 436H called him. Or did he call upon him, it does seem like he woke Blackwell from bed when he heard the news and that implies they may be in the same residence at that time. But Johnson never says in any interview that Ive found that he was awake at the time the constable showed up. He also doesnt say "I was in bed", but I dont believe that at 1am its a huge stretch to think he had retired for the night.

Even if he was awake, dont let the trees obscure the forest here. If Lamb saw Eagle as he was out looking for help, and Lamb was correct that it was just before or at 1am, and Eagle doesnt even notify the station until 1:10ish, then how can Johnson, dressed or not, be at 40 Berner St at 1:12-1:13? He cant.

It seems you, like some other posters, do not factor in any time taken by any of these witness to first process then act. Its like all of these people were just standing by waiting for the go-sign. They werent.

[FrankO]

If Eagle was sent to notify the station, so that they could notify Johnson, so that he could be there at 3-4 minutes before Blackwell, at 1:16....then at what time did Louis first get off his cart? Before he went indoors. Before Eagle and others came down to see whats up, before Issac K is first sent out, and Eagle leaves..then Louis and Issac[s]? Issac cannot find anyone so he heads out to find Eagle who has caught the attention of Lamb at, or just before, 1am.

Would Morris Eagle have been on Commercial where he is seen by Lamb at just before or at 1am if Louis first arrives just after 1am? Not a trick question...obviously not.

Hi Michael,

Again, Eagle went to the station to fetch the inspector, while PC 426 H was sent for the nearest doctor, which was Blackwell, who had his residence at 100, Commercial Road and whose assistant was Johnson. That means, of course, that Eagle had nothing to do with Johnson arriving in the yard when he did. If you think that things were different, then let me know and, more importantly, let me know based on what evidence you think things were different.

Furthermore, I’ve provided evidence that Eagle arrived at the police station at around 1:10 and that this timing goes very well with Blackwell’s timing of 1:16. Then stating that Eagle must have been sent from the yard by Lamb at about 1:05 doesn’t violate the evidence and the timings of 1:10 and 1:16 in the least.

Based on the distances involved from the yard to where Lamb was found and from the yard, through Fairclough Street, to Grove Street, it’s perfectly possible that Diemshutz arrived in the yard a couple of minutes before 1 am – on Blackwell’s watch.

That's all I'm going to say about it.

All the best,
Frank

[Michael W Richards]

In this murder we have people suggesting strangers enter the scene and leave it without any witness seeing or hearing them, we have witnesses from the club that give statements that do not validate other witnesses, even others from the same club, we have witnesses that were not sure whether a body was there when they walked by that very spot at 12:40, we have witnesses that are known to be presumed part of a lawless anarchist element of Socialism and give times that not one of the officials times can marry with, and we have a woman given the stand at the Inquest that stated the woman killed wasnt Liz Stride at all...despite the fact that friends have already identified her as such and the police already knew she was Not Mary Malcoms sister, Elizabeth Watts.

To top it all we have folks propogating the myth that Liz Strides murder is in keeping with the prior 2 murders committed by an unknown they now called Jack and should be considered a Ripper victim.

Much of this murder, and its investigation, is unknown and unexplained. Anyone tells you different, well........they either dont know the case or they drank the Ripper lemonade.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael,

Again, Eagle went to the station to fetch the inspector, while PC 426 H was sent for the nearest doctor, which was Blackwell, who had his residence at 100, Commercial Road and whose assistant was Johnson. That means, of course, that Eagle had nothing to do with Johnson arriving in the yard when he did. If you think that things were different, then let me know and, more importantly, let me know based on what evidence you think things were different.

Furthermore, I’ve provided evidence that Eagle arrived at the police station at around 1:10 and that this timing goes very well with Blackwell’s timing of 1:16. Then stating that Eagle must have been sent from the yard by Lamb at about 1:05 doesn’t violate the evidence and the timings of 1:10 and 1:16 in the least.

Based on the distances involved from the yard to where Lamb was found and from the yard, through Fairclough Street, to Grove Street, it’s perfectly possible that Diemshutz arrived in the yard a couple of minutes before 1 am – on Blackwell’s watch.

That's all I'm going to say about it.

All the best,
Frank

Eagle is the reason Johnson is there at all Frank. Its his report of the crime that starts the full response by the authorities. Lamb is just the beat cop who got the news from Eagle. And one thing you wrote above you obviously didnt read.....the PC didnt go fetch Johnson until after Eagle announced the crime to the inspector. The PC didnt go to Johnsons while simultaneously Eagle went to see the Inspector...the inspector sent the PC after talking with Eagle. So no-one is at Johnsons door until after Eagle had notified the Inspector...at what time seems to be the consensus, around 1:10. Then PC goes to 100 Commercial, gets Johnson, and Johnson wakes Blackwell. That would be around 1:15 at the earliest...if Eagle did first arrive to see the Inspector by 1:10am. Then the PC and Johnson go to the crime scene, at around 1:16-1:17. So they would be there at around what.....1:19-1:20ish? See any problems with that? I sure hope so, my faith in the common sense perceptions of others cannot survive many more challenges.

Lamb said he saw Eagle at or just before 1am, Johnson said he was there on the scene at 3-4 minutes before Blackwell arrived, and Blackwell said he arrived at 1:16.

If you cannot see that all indicates that Louis first notified Eagle and sent him out before 1am, then you will never understand what happened there.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thats some great detective work Herlock. And what time did Johnson say he was there? 3 or 4 minutes before Blackwell, who isnt being disputed as having arrived at "1:16am" as he stated.

So Johnson gets there, awake and dressed within just 3 or 4 minutes huh? Amazing. After first being woken from sleep at just after 1:10? Was Johnson living in those stables I wonder, since no human could have been there that quickly if not as close as that.

And Lamb says that he saw Eagle at, or just before 1am, yet you claim in post # that Lamb actually saw him at 5 after 1. Wow....did you find another quote from him that states that, or are you just making s*** up as you go again?

Just so we all stay on page with you....Lambs wrong on his time, Johnsons wrong on his time, Spooner is contradicted by himself?..(that one is a doozy), Hescheberg is wrong with his time, Issac Kozebrodski is wrong with not only his time but whom he went searching with, Blackwells times is wrong, and so is Phillips. Its just good old Herlock that has all the times corrected now by simply negating what the witnesses actually said about the time and inserting what times work for Herlock.... Whew. Glad thats settled.
Sarcasm aside, I think what we all should trust is that when Herlock says he has figured things out..............

Using actual evidence in this case solves nothing for you, right Herly? Just change all the reliable times and insert all the anarchist ones. Everones happy.

Truly pathetic.

Blackwell lived 175 yards from the club. This means that it would have taken Johnson between 90 seconds and 2 minutes to walk from where he lived to the yard.

So (as ever allowing a couple of minutes here and there) we have the two Constable’s and Lamb arriving at the yard at around 1.05. The Constable is sent to Blackwell’s and arrives there at around 1.07 (90 seconds to 2 minutes walk remember) Johnson goes upstairs and tells Blackwell then takes the return walk (still 90 seconds to 2 minutes remember) and gets to the yard at around 1.10.

Again you invent things to add time “So Johnson gets there, awake and dressed within just 3 or 4 minutes huh? Amazing. After first being woken from sleep at just after 1:10?”

Telegraph: “I received a call from Constable 436 H. After informing Dr. Blackwell, who was in bed,“

Times: “I received a call from constable 436 H. After informing Dr. Blackwell, who was in bed, of the nature of the case,”

Blackwell was in bed but nowhere does it state that Johnson was in bed. He went upstairs, told Blackwell, back downstairs and out.

He arrived at around 1.10. Blackwell at 1.16.

Leave out the manipulations Michael and you’ll get there eventually.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hello Michael

is there any indication that Johnston was asleep at the time? He mentions Blackwell was in bed but why do you think Johnston was?

Beat me to it Kattrup.

[Herlock Sholmes]

By the way, the preponderance of evidence available says that there are 2 people, who were inside the club and had clock access,

Could you provide the proof that there was a clock?
And if there was could you provide the proof that Koz and Heschberg could see it from where they were sitting?
And if they couldn’t see it from where they were sitting could you explain why they would go and check the clock before going to see the body?
And if they were basing their times on a previous sighting if a click could you tell us how much time had elapsed since then?

I’m sure that you’ll know the answers to the above?

say they were with Louis over the body in the passageway around 12:40, an additional witness says he was there about 12:35.. Yet he did not have any reference point for time and can be given leeway on the exact time he was at the gates, and all of these people could see each other at those times.

Could you let me know where Spooner, Kozebrodsky and Heschberg specifically mention seeing each other? I’ll send you a cigar if you can.

No-one sees Louis arrive or when, no one sees Eagle arrive...or when, and Lamb did not say he first saw Eaqle at around 1:05. He said, at the Inquest, transcribed by a Daily Tegraph reporter on Wednes the 3rd, ..."Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting."

And again we’re back to quoting the entirely isolate ‘just before’ when it suits you. You should be better than these tactics Michael. Please stick to quotes without cherrypicking ‘one offs.’

Stop putting your own words in witness mouths please,... they never, ever gave times you now want to assign to their own statements, and secondly they can speak for themselves. And did.

I’m just speechless at that last comments. Discussion is impossible if this is your tactic. Please address the facts without baseless accusations. I’ve recently posted a long list of the witnesses whose time that I accept. Rather more than you do. And I don’t just select a group of ‘bad’ witnesses to dismiss out of hand either… your ‘club mob.’

[Michael W Richards]

I know Herlock, the witnesses were all at the ready with Hat and Coat to go to the scene of the crime they didnt know had been committed yet. Eagle even goes back in time to leave for help before he is seen asking for it at Commercial, because you cant see someone somewhere at or just before 1 when they are not even going to be there for another 5-10 minutes...oh, yeah. In Herlock Town no-one is leashed by reason or witness provided times....all will be well once The Herly just changes a few statements around. Makes the anarchists the Good Guys, and the Cops and medical authorities the people who cant even read a clock.

Youve been told so many times about errors you make in simply reciting the evidence verbatim, the weak and improbable positions you take on issues that are quite frankly.. transparently... incorrect, and you smugly state that others are wrong when you have provided nothing but your revised witness accounts to support your statements. To have won an argument old boy, you must first win one. Like claiming youve scaled Everest when you know nothing about the mountain that isnt found in pictures of it, and have never stepped foot on it. But go ahead, plant your flag, Ill just toss it back over the edge when you leave.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Eagle is the reason Johnson is there at all Frank. Its his report of the crime that starts the full response by the authorities. Lamb is just the beat cop who got the news from Eagle. And one thing you wrote above you obviously didnt read.....the PC didnt go fetch Johnson until after Eagle announced the crime to the inspector. The PC didnt go to Johnsons while simultaneously Eagle went to see the Inspector...the inspector sent the PC after talking with Eagle. So no-one is at Johnsons door until after Eagle had notified the Inspector...at what time seems to be the consensus, around 1:10. Then PC goes to 100 Commercial, gets Johnson, and Johnson wakes Blackwell. That would be around 1:15 at the earliest...if Eagle did first arrive to see the Inspector by 1:10am. Then the PC and Johnson go to the crime scene, at around 1:16-1:17. So they would be there at around what.....1:19-1:20ish? See any problems with that? I sure hope so, my faith in the common sense perceptions of others cannot survive many more challenges.

Lamb said he saw Eagle at or just before 1am, Johnson said he was there on the scene at 3-4 minutes before Blackwell arrived, and Blackwell said he arrived at 1:16.

If you cannot see that all indicates that Louis first notified Eagle and sent him out before 1am, then you will never understand what happened there.

Are you reading about a case in a parallel universe Michael???

You say: “The PC didnt go to Johnsons while simultaneously Eagle went to see the Inspector...the inspector sent the PC after talking with Eagle. So no-one is at Johnsons door until after Eagle had notified the Inspector“


Your’e simply making things up Michael

LAMB SENT THE PC….NOT THE INSPECTOR…..how hard can this be Michael? It’s just reading after all.

PC Lamb (not the Inspector)

“I sent the other constable for the nearest doctor,”

[Herlock Sholmes]

I know Herlock, the witnesses were all at the ready with Hat and Coat to go to the scene of the crime they didnt know had been committed yet.

I made no claim about all witnesses being ready. Just reduce the hysteria for a minute. I simply stated a fact. Johnson did not say that he was in bed. You claimed that he was undressed when there’s no evidence that he was so please don’t try turning this around. The simplest thing would have been for you to have admitted to being wrong.

Eagle even goes back in time to leave for help before he is seen asking for it at Commercial, because you cant see someone somewhere at or just before 1 when they are not even going to be there for another 5-10 minutes...oh, yeah.

He said ‘around 1.00.’ You cherry pick ‘before 1.00.’ Again. Louis 1.00 - Eagle/Lamb around 1.05. There are no issues apart from invented ones.

In Herlock Town no-one is leashed by reason or witness provided times....all will be well once The Herly just changes a few statements around. Makes the anarchists the Good Guys, and the Cops and medical authorities the people who cant even read a clock.

I make no one the ‘good guys’ or the ‘bad guys.’ Michael. Please stay within reason. You are the one who has assumed the club members to be ‘bad guys’ so that you can discredit their testimony.

Youve been told so many times about errors you make in simply reciting the evidence verbatim, the weak and improbable positions you take on issues that are quite frankly.. transparently... incorrect, and you smugly state that others are wrong when you have provided nothing but your revised witness accounts to support your statements. To have won an argument old boy, you must first win one. Like claiming youve scaled Everest when you know nothing about the mountain that isnt found in pictures of it, and have never stepped foot on it. But go ahead, plant your flag, Ill just toss it back over the edge when you leave.

The last part is just hysterical so I won’t respond.

[FrankO]

Eagle is the reason Johnson is there at all Frank. Its his report of the crime that starts the full response by the authorities. Lamb is just the beat cop who got the news from Eagle. And one thing you wrote above you obviously didnt read.....the PC didnt go fetch Johnson until after Eagle announced the crime to the inspector. The PC didnt go to Johnsons while simultaneously Eagle went to see the Inspector...the inspector sent the PC after talking with Eagle. So no-one is at Johnsons door until after Eagle had notified the Inspector...

Okay, Michael, if you post the newspaper snippets that show your conclusion above is correct, then I'll reconsider.

And I'm curious as to where the PC went that Lamb sent for the nearest doctor, so let me know that as well.

If you cannot see that all indicates that Louis first notified Eagle and sent him out before 1am, then you will never understand what happened there.

Not if you at least give some timeline of the events between Diemshutz discovering Stride and Blackwell arriving in the yard.

Cheers,
Frank