Berner Street: No Plot, No Mystery

[The Rookie Detective]

Thank you, but in my view, many of my posts are not well thought out.

How do you know that nobody heard it?
All we know is nobody reported it.
That's not the same as nobody heard it.

According to Schwartz, he followed B.S. down Berner Street. So, before B.S. and Stride interact, B.S. is between the club and Commercial Road. Before that, for some brief period, he's on Commercial. Before that .... somewhere else I guess.

According to Schwartz, yes.

Which indicates she was indoors, as she said she was at some points in time, so the Schwartz incident must occur when Mortimer isn't on her doorstep..

That's what Schwartz says

Againg, placing her inside, as she says she was at various times.

Ummm, no.

Packer was long gone. He closed up after selling grapes; if Stride wasn't involved in that sale, he probably closed up long before anything of interest.

Packer doesn't matter.
Fanny just indicates teh Schwartz incident had to happen after she went inside, and she says in a couple of news reports, she was only on her porch for 10 minute or so. Placing her inside at the latest, 1:50. So, really, not a biggie.

Packer is irrelevant with regards to Schwartz.

That is nothing like Schwartz's statement, and nothing in Schwartz's statement would require modifying to make it fit. As such, I can't agree.

Again, Lave is in the yard, B.S. was followed from Commercial Street by Schwartz, so no, Lave doesn't work.

The concern your having is because you are building upon some dubious foundations.

Schwartz tells us, he folled BS down Bernerd Street from Commercial Road.

Someone yelling out, not too loudly, a few cries, would hardly have been considered worth noting.

Sometimes things are just as they seem. Ponder that.

- Jeff

Excellent Jeff

So we can prove conclusively that the only way Schwartz's statement is correct is if Mortimer is NOT standing at her doorway when BS walks past her door.

That confirms that Mortimer was not at her door when BS man walked past, neither was she when the assault on Stride happened, or the shout of Lipksi or when Schwartz ran off with Pipeman following.

That then means that any statement made by Mortimer where she says she was at her door between 12.30am to just before the body was found, is a lie.

If it's not a lie, then Schwartz is lying because BS man can't just appear out of thin air. BS man had to have walked past Mortimers door at some point shortly before he attacked Stride.


And so essentially, once PC Smith passes at 12.35am and Eagle has walked down the side of the club at 12.40am, then it leaves the Schwartz incident free to happen at 12.45am.

It does mean that Mortimer couldn't have been at her door when...

PC Smith walked down Berner Street
Eagle returned to the club
When Lave came as far as the street to get some air
Bs man walked past her door
The attack on Stride
Schwartz and Pipeman running
Bs man directly after the assault
Stride directly after the assault

It therefore begs the question...

Exactly WHEN did Mortimer actually stand at her door?

Does ANYONE see Mortimer at her door?

If not, then perhaps it's Mortimer who's lying.

Or she's telling the truth but stood at her door at er.... Where does she have time to be at her door?

She saw nobody and nobody saw her.

How bizarre


RD

[Herlock Sholmes]

There are two problems with Fanny:

1) She said that she was on her doorstep for nearly the whole time between 12.30 and 1.00 but gives no more than that. So how many times did she come onto her doorstep and go back inside? We have no way of knowing.
2) She also said that she went onto her doorstep after hearing the tread of a beat Constable. To be honest I’d assumed that she’d said that this was at 12.45 which would create an issue but in the two papers that I’ve seen that mention this (London Evening News and Daily News) both say that it was ‘shortly before a quarter to 1.00.’ If this is what she actually said then I’m fairly confident that she actually went onto her doorstep just after PC Smith passed; 12.35 is shortly before 12.45 as there is no set definition of ‘shortly’. She also said that she was there for 10 minutes and Jeff has illustrated how poor we are at estimating periods of time…so how long was she actually there?

So if she went onto her doorstep at 12.35 (after Smith passed) when did she go back inside (considering that 10 minutes was an estimate)? 12.42? 12.43? 12.44? 12.45?

So if Schwartz passed at 12.43/ 12.44/ 12.45/ 12.46 Fanny is back indoors.

As I said in my opening posts; as a witness Fanny Mortimer is next to useless.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Herlock,

I believe there are a few reports of what Levy says he did, I think at least 3? One puts him in the yard for 5 minutes, one for 10, and one for 30 minutes. The 30 minute one is clearly wrong (it covers everyone's time for the murder, so unless someone is putting Levy up as Stride's killer, the 30 minute one is clearly an error of some sort - perhaps the reporter muddled things, and had Levy outside from the time he went to the yard until the time the body was found type thing). Anyway, if he was only out in the yard for 5-10 minutes, then I think he's inside before 12:45, and so he fits with the idea that there was nothing of interest to see to that point.

- Jeff

Nothing of interest to see to that point? What about the transition from Stride talking to Parcelman across and up the street a bit, to Stride standing in the gateway, seemingly alone? In #244 you said, "PC Smith's stated times would be based upon whatever clock he used to update himself." That would explain why Smith thought he was at the top of Berner St at the same time that Diemschitz turned into it. Presumably then, Smith's times have to be brought forward a bit. So, when do you suppose Lave was near the gates - before or after Smith? If after, how could he have missed seeing Stride in the gateway, had she at some point been there? If before Smith, was it early enough to miss seeing Stride and the man with the parcel?

Most reports have Lave outside in the 12:40 or 12:45 region. As RD said, it seems that to make the evidence of Schwartz work, multiple witnesses need to be moved out of the way, considering the times they gave. Why is one witness, who is not corroborated by any other, given the privilege of moving inconvenient witnesses out of the way?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

True, but was she the only woman to wear a flower? If there was a nearby flower seller some other guy could have bought his girl a flower.

So, your latest theory requires:

- A woman who looks just like Stride
- and who was dressed just like Stride
- to be seen standing near and when Stride was killed
- and to be wearing a flower
- obtained from a nearby flower seller
- who the police never identify
- The woman and her companion must leave the scene just before Stride arrives
- and waits for some unknown person for unknown reason
- who never enters the picture when he arrives and she's nowhere to be found
- and is never identified by the police


Why does Schwartz's story require all this invention?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Nothing of interest to see to that point? What about the transition from Stride talking to Parcelman across and up the street a bit, to Stride standing in the gateway, seemingly alone? In #244 you said, "PC Smith's stated times would be based upon whatever clock he used to update himself." That would explain why Smith thought he was at the top of Berner St at the same time that Diemschitz turned into it. Presumably then, Smith's times have to be brought forward a bit. So, when do you suppose Lave was near the gates - before or after Smith? If after, how could he have missed seeing Stride in the gateway, had she at some point been there? If before Smith, was it early enough to miss seeing Stride and the man with the parcel?

Most reports have Lave outside in the 12:40 or 12:45 region. As RD said, it seems that to make the evidence of Schwartz work, multiple witnesses need to be moved out of the way, considering the times they gave. Why is one witness, who is not corroborated by any other, given the privilege of moving inconvenient witnesses out of the way?

The problem is with Lave and not the rest though. If we trust Smith, and I’m assuming that we all do, then Lave simply couldn’t have been in that gateway at around 12.35 else he would have seen the couple that were undoubtedly there at around that time and Smith. He also missed Eagle’s return. So we can’t explain Lave in terms of other people being wrong but only in terms of the vagueness of what we have been told about Lave.

How can we rely on Levy?

“I came out first at half-past twelve to get a breath of fresh air. I passed out into the street, but did not see anything unusual. The district appeared to me to be quiet. I remained out until twenty minutes to one.”

Didn’t see Smith, the couple or Eagle.

“At half-past twelve I had come out into the street to get a breath of fresh air. There was nothing unusual in the street. So far as I could see I was out in the street about half an hour”

Didn't see Smith, the couple, Eagle, Mortimer, the incident or Diemschitz.

“I came out first at half-past twelve to get a breath of fresh air. I passed out into the street, but did not see anything unusual. The district appeared to me to be quiet. I remained out until twenty minutes to one.”

Didn't see Smith, the couple or Eagle.

“I went down into the court about twenty minutes before the body was discovered, and walked about in the open air for five minutes or more”

Didn’t see Mortimer or the incident.


“..a Russian named Joseph Lave, went down into the court about 20 minutes before the body was discovered.”

Possibly didn’t see Mortimer or the incident but may have simply missed it if he was only there for 5 minutes as reported in two newspapers.

“..went down into the court about 20 minutes before the body was discovered, and walked about in the open air for about five minutes or more. He strolled into the street, which was very quiet at the time,”

Didn’t see Mortimer or the incident.


So was Smith lying or mistaken? I don’t think that anyone would suggest either (accept for the ID)

Was Fanny Mortimer lying? I wouldn’t suggest it but she could have been mistaken.

Was Morris Eagle lying? I can only think of one person that would suggest it.


Therefore, either Lave was lying for some reason (and I can’t think of one) or else what he actually did that evening meant that he missed Smith, the couple, Eagle, Mortimer and the incident or else the incident didn’t occur at 12.45 and Fanny Mortimer wasn’t on her doorstep at 12.45 (though from the gateway it’s plausible that Lave might not have seen her in her doorway?)

For me, the likeliest explanation was that circumstances made him miss events. A scenario as an example: he went into the yard at around 12.25-12.30 and went to the gates to see no one. He turned back and strolled around the yard and moved toward the back near the printer’s office. During the 5 minutes or so that he was there the couple strolled down Berner Street and stopped to talk for a minute or two. Smith passed and saw them, then they moved off. Eagle returned at around 12.35. Lave strolled back up toward the gates and looked onto the street again at 12.40, saw nothing and went back inside.

Either that or he went to the gates at 12.25-12.30, saw nothing, then went to use the loo and was in there for 5 minutes or so, during which time the couple, Smith and Eagle occurred. He came out, went to the gates at 12.40, saw nothing and went back inside.

[JeffHamm]

Nothing of interest to see to that point? What about the transition from Stride talking to Parcelman across and up the street a bit, to Stride standing in the gateway, seemingly alone? In #244 you said, "PC Smith's stated times would be based upon whatever clock he used to update himself." That would explain why Smith thought he was at the top of Berner St at the same time that Diemschitz turned into it. Presumably then, Smith's times have to be brought forward a bit. So, when do you suppose Lave was near the gates - before or after Smith? If after, how could he have missed seeing Stride in the gateway, had she at some point been there? If before Smith, was it early enough to miss seeing Stride and the man with the parcel?

Most reports have Lave outside in the 12:40 or 12:45 region. As RD said, it seems that to make the evidence of Schwartz work, multiple witnesses need to be moved out of the way, considering the times they gave. Why is one witness, who is not corroborated by any other, given the privilege of moving inconvenient witnesses out of the way?

Lave was in the yard, not on the street, so the only thing he would see from the yard if he was there the whole time is the actual murder, which he didn't see. Therefore, the one report that says he was there for 30 minutes is the wrong one. The others place him in the yard for 5 to 10 minutes, before 12:45, during which nothing of interest happens in the yard. A few things do occur in the street, but he could no more see them from the yard then he could from being inside the building.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

So, your latest theory requires:

- A woman who looks just like Stride - was Stride in any way unique in her appearance?
- and who was dressed just like Stride - did poverty-stricken women dress so individualistically?
- to be seen standing near and when Stride was killed - two women in the same street at different times had to have been the same woman?
- and to be wearing a flower - Stride was the only woman in Whitechapel wearing a flower that day?
- obtained from a nearby flower seller - just a suggestion that two women might have been bought a flower by a male friend from a nearby seller. Maybe they got them from different sources? How is this important?
- who the police never identify - the police never identified the couple that Brown saw; did they not exist? The police never identified the man seen with Eddowes; did he not exist? Did Blotchy man not exist?
- The woman and her companion must leave the scene just before Stride arrives - people move.
- and waits for some unknown person for unknown reason - people do things for reasons that are known to only themselves.
- who never enters the picture when he arrives and she's nowhere to be found - people don’t show up sometimes; maybe he showed up to see the commotion at the yard but didn’t get involved? Maybe he didn’t want to own up to a connection to Stride? Maybe he was married?
- and is never identified by the police - he couldn’t have been if he hadn’t turned up or hadn’t come forward.


Why does Schwartz's story require all this invention?

It doesn’t ‘require’ it because as I made clear earlier I was only speculating on ‘what if’ the woman that Smith saw wasn’t Stride. It could have been Stride; it changes nothing. The couple could have been the couple that Brown saw; who parted after he went home and Stride went to the gates. Or, Stride and the man could have move either way along Fairclough Street or further along Berner Street, and another couple stood on the corner to be seen by Brown. They moved on and Stride returned alone to the gates.

[The Rookie Detective]

There are two problems with Fanny:

1) She said that she was on her doorstep for nearly the whole time between 12.30 and 1.00 but gives no more than that. So how many times did she come onto her doorstep and go back inside? We have no way of knowing.
2) She also said that she went onto her doorstep after hearing the tread of a beat Constable. To be honest I’d assumed that she’d said that this was at 12.45 which would create an issue but in the two papers that I’ve seen that mention this (London Evening News and Daily News) both say that it was ‘shortly before a quarter to 1.00.’ If this is what she actually said then I’m fairly confident that she actually went onto her doorstep just after PC Smith passed; 12.35 is shortly before 12.45 as there is no set definition of ‘shortly’. She also said that she was there for 10 minutes and Jeff has illustrated how poor we are at estimating periods of time…so how long was she actually there?

So if she went onto her doorstep at 12.35 (after Smith passed) when did she go back inside (considering that 10 minutes was an estimate)? 12.42? 12.43? 12.44? 12.45?

So if Schwartz passed at 12.43/ 12.44/ 12.45/ 12.46 Fanny is back indoors.

As I said in my opening posts; as a witness Fanny Mortimer is next to useless.

I agree Herlock


Mortimer is irritating because it is clear from the story told by Schwartz that she couldn't have been at the doorstop for nearly the whole time, because she missed seeing BS man and Schwartz.

She also missed Eagle who arrived back at the club no more than 5 minutes after PC Smith passed by.

So if she was standing at her door the whole time, it wasn't at 12.35am and it wasn't at 12.40am when Eagle returned...it also wasn't at 12.45am when BS man and Schwartz passed by.

We know Eagle got back between PC Smith and Bs man because he wasn't seen, unless of course Parcelman was Eagle having brought back some illegal contraband for an "after hours" gathering at the club.

If Eagle was Parcelman, then that would do with the timings.

But either way Fanny didn't see Eagle; who tried the front entrance first and so would have been seen by Fanny.

We know that PC Smith didn't see Fanny at the door because he would have said so being an officer.

And so Fanny wasn't at her door at...

12.35am
12.40am
12.45am

Of course, she may have been at her door at 12.42am AFTER Eagle had walked out of view, but would have needed to have gone back inside BEFORE Bs Man walks past her door at 12.44am.


I would defy anyone to incorporate Mortimer, Schwartz, Packer and Lave without having to move the goalposts.


RD

[JeffHamm]

I agree Herlock


Mortimer is irritating because it is clear from the story told by Schwartz that she couldn't have been at the doorstop for nearly the whole time, because she missed seeing BS man and Schwartz.

She also missed Eagle who arrived back at the club no more than 5 minutes after PC Smith passed by.

So if she was standing at her door the whole time, it wasn't at 12.35am and it wasn't at 12.40am when Eagle returned...it also wasn't at 12.45am when BS man and Schwartz passed by.

We know Eagle got back between PC Smith and Bs man because he wasn't seen, unless of course Parcelman was Eagle having brought back some illegal contraband for an "after hours" gathering at the club.

If Eagle was Parcelman, then that would do with the timings.

But either way Fanny didn't see Eagle; who tried the front entrance first and so would have been seen by Fanny.

We know that PC Smith didn't see Fanny at the door because he would have said so being an officer.

And so Fanny wasn't at her door at...

12.35am
12.40am
12.45am

Of course, she may have been at her door at 12.42am AFTER Eagle had walked out of view, but would have needed to have gone back inside BEFORE Bs Man walks past her door at 12.44am.


I would defy anyone to incorporate Mortimer, Schwartz, Packer and Lave without having to move the goalposts.


RD

The thing is, it is only in one news report that Fanny claims to be on her doorstep "nearly the whole time", in the others she says 10 minutes. Similar with Lave, in only one report does it say he was in the yard for 30 minutes, in others he says either 5 or 10 minutes. Given that for both the longest time clearly cannot be the case as otherwise Fanny would have had to see Stride and her killer, whether or not that is B.S., and whether or not you dismiss Schwartz altogether, and the same would apply to Lave, as he's in the yard so would have had to witness the murder in the ally. As such, there is no grounds to even try and incorporate those times as they must be wrong.

That means, Fanny was probably on her doorstep around 12:35 to 12:45ish, and Lave in the yard (where he wouldn't be seen by Fanny, nor see much on Berner Street) around a similar time. So if Fanny goes in around 12:45, the Schwartz event, which would last under 2 minutes, occurs at some point after that. Given Schwartz also places the events around 12:45, perhaps one could argue for between 12:45 and 12:50 type thing. Given Deimshutz doesn't arrive until 1:00, that even leaves time for B.S. to leave and someone else to come along if that line of thought takes your fancy, or for B.S. to be her killer.

As for Packer, the first time he spoke to the police he said he closed up shop around 11:30, later changed his story to 12:30, and the medical autopsy showed no signs of Stride having eaten grapes. As such, if Packer wasn't just seeking fame, which some have suggested, then whomever he sold grapes to does not appear to have been Stride (although I believe he did identify her at the morgue). In addition, given he changes the time of events from one telling to the next, it is unclear even when his sighting occurs.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

I would defy anyone to incorporate Mortimer, Schwartz, Packer and Lave without having to move the goalposts.


RD

I don’t see them as goalposts though RD. Goalposts are fixed and these times aren’t fixed; the majority are estimates. The only times that aren’t estimates come from Diemschitz and Dr. Blackwell and with those we still can’t be certain of accuracy or synchronicity (although I feel that a Doctor would be more likely to have kept his watch up to speed - then again, accurate to which source?)

So we can’t negate one estimated timing with another estimated timing. I know that it seems to some that a script is being changed but that’s really not the case. Look at the table that Jeff produced showing how inaccurate we can be in estimating periods of time. That clocks can be poorly synchronised is a fact of life even today with all of our tech. I don’t know if you saw a while ago I did a bit of an experiment. I can’t recall the exact details but I had a few family members at my house and at a set time I checked all of the times, phones, watches, clocks, microwave, hi-if etc. I got a range of around 8 minutes.

So, allowing for a reasonable margin we can incorporate everyone in more than one scenario. I’d suggest that this is far more likely than witnesses pretending to be where they weren’t and far-fetched plots.

[The Rookie Detective]

The thing is, it is only in one news report that Fanny claims to be on her doorstep "nearly the whole time", in the others she says 10 minutes. Similar with Lave, in only one report does it say he was in the yard for 30 minutes, in others he says either 5 or 10 minutes. Given that for both the longest time clearly cannot be the case as otherwise Fanny would have had to see Stride and her killer, whether or not that is B.S., and whether or not you dismiss Schwartz altogether, and the same would apply to Lave, as he's in the yard so would have had to witness the murder in the ally. As such, there is no grounds to even try and incorporate those times as they must be wrong.

That means, Fanny was probably on her doorstep around 12:35 to 12:45ish, and Lave in the yard (where he wouldn't be seen by Fanny, nor see much on Berner Street) around a similar time. So if Fanny goes in around 12:45, the Schwartz event, which would last under 2 minutes, occurs at some point after that. Given Schwartz also places the events around 12:45, perhaps one could argue for between 12:45 and 12:50 type thing. Given Deimshutz doesn't arrive until 1:00, that even leaves time for B.S. to leave and someone else to come along if that line of thought takes your fancy, or for B.S. to be her killer.


- Jeff

A great post Jeff

The only issue is that Mortimer couldn't have been at her door between 12.35am and 12.45am because she would have seen Eagle return to the club and try the front door which was locked.

The only person Mortimer claims to hear is the footsteps of someone walking past, possibly a police officer.

The only person she sees is a man walking hurriedly down Berner Street with a black bag shortly before the murder.

Eagle must have returned to the club after Pc Smith passed at 12.35am, but before 12.45am when BS man would have walked past Mortimer's door and Schwartz arrived shortly after.

In other words, the only 8 to 10 minutes period available for Mortimer to have been standing at her door, was AFTER the Schwartz incident occurred.

Mortimer may have been at her door from 12.47am to 12.55am OR 12.48 to 12.56m or 12.49am - 12.57am or 12.50am - 12.58am

There are NO 8 minutes time slots available to her before the Schwartz incident.

12.35am PC Smith is there
12.40am Eagle is there
12.44am BS man is there
12.45am Schwartz is there
Lave is around at some point too and claims he went as far as the street.

Let's also not forget that PC Smith saw a couple a few yards from the gateway, that Mortimer didn't see.
Eagle tried the front door of the club and Mortimer didn't see that either.

Eagle also needs to have gone back into the club BEFORE BS man arrives to assault Stride

The issue is, Eagle sees nobody near the gateway, but Stride must have been there when he got back.


This is only explained IF Parcelman was Eagle.

That means that Eagle returns back earlier than he thought and when Pc Smith walks past, he sees Stride with Eagle.

Eagle then goes back into the club via the side door.

But Mortimer still couldn't have come out at 12.40am, because in under 5 minutes BS man would have been outside her door with Schwartz behind him.

Another key thing to consider is...


Where was Stride in all this?

Let's assume Stride is talking with Parcelman and PC Smith is correct.

This places Stride close to the gateway around 5 to 10 minutes before she is attacked by BS man.

We know that Stride must have been standing inside the gateway by 12.45am, because thats the approximate time she gets attacked.

We could bring Schwartz's timing forward to 12.42am, but then must account for BS man being there before Schwartz arrived and consider that Eagle must have already gone back in the club before Bs Man arrives.

We could push Schwartz's timing back to around 12.50am

This would ensure that Eagle is not there, PC Smith has long gone and that Stride would have been near the gateway around 10 minutes before she was murdered.

The issue then is that the more we push the timings closer to 1am, the more the chances are that BS man was the killer, because otherwise, where did he go BEFORE Mortimer come out to stand at her doorstep for 8 minutes?

As you can see, even if we tweak the timings forward and back to suit the hypothesis, there is still no way to explain how it all fits in.

Now if Schwartz saw the attack at 12.50am
Mortimer never came out her door at all until she heard there had been a murder
Eagle had gone back inside the club by 12.40am

Only then do we have a scenario whereby the Schwartz account could have happened

We know that Mortimer wasn't at her door when

Pc SMith
Eagle
Bs Man
Schwartz

were there.


I believe that EITHER Mortimer or Schwartz are the issue here.

Quite frankly, you can't have both because they just don't fit.


Schwartz's account COULD work IF Mortimer was never at her door and Eagle had gone back in the club.


With regards to timings, I don't believe altering times by more than 10 minutes is the right thing to do.

On that basis...

PC Smith 12.30-12.40am
Eagle 12.30 -12.40am
Schwartz incident 12.40-12.50am
Mortimer at her door... er... 12.48-12.58am

Or Mortimer comes and goes from her door 4 times between 12.30am - 12.58am, but every time only for a maximum stay of no more than 2 minutes each time. This makes up the minimum of 8 minutes that she would have stayed at her door collectively (having already reduced the 10 minutes down to 8 minutes just to squeeze her in) Incredibly, in each of the 4 visits, she misses Pc Smith, Eagle, Bs Man and Schwartz.

Or, she lied and never came to her door

Or she told the truth and was there for at least 8 minutes observing the street, but only AFTER Eagle had walked into Dutfiled's yard. This also means that Schwartz would have lied and BS Man and Pipeman never existed.

Also, IF the killer wasn't Eagle, Lave, Bs Man, Pipeman or Schwartz, then when did the killer get there?

If Schwartz account is correct, Eagle is innocent, and it leaves either Bs Man or Pipeman...

Unless Bs man and Pipeman have gone and then the real killer arrive out of nowhere and walks up and cuts her throat.

But the real killer couldn't have walked past Mortimer's door if she was there AFTER the Schwartz incident.


Ultimately, IF Schwartz's account is correct, regardless of whether it occurred at 12.45, 12.40 or 12.50am, it leaves no period of time for Mortimer to have been at her door.

Interestingly thought, we know that Mortimer did see Goldstein, and so she did stand at her door at some point.

Based on her witness statement, the only person who could have arrived in Berner Street to kill Stride AFTER Bs man had gone, was Goldstein, unless the killer came from the club OR one of the houses in the yard.

That would mean the killer was completely out of sight the entire time AFTER Bs Man had finished assaulting her.

The only man to have claimed to have walked from the side door to the street where the gateway was, and where Stride was after she was assaulted by Bs Man, was Lave himself; the man seeking refuge in the club.


Tweaking times for Schwartz and/or Mortimer still doesn't fit.

One of them is wrong or lying.


If not, then I ask again; someone show me a timeline whereby BOTH their statements can work.


It can't be done no matter how much time tweaking is done to try and explain away the fact that it can't be done.

Especially if the killer was the Ripper.



RD

[JeffHamm]

A great post Jeff

The only issue is that Mortimer couldn't have been at her door between 12.35am and 12.45am because she would have seen Eagle return to the club and try the front door which was locked.

The only person Mortimer claims to hear is the footsteps of someone walking past, possibly a police officer.

The only person she sees is a man walking hurriedly down Berner Street with a black bag shortly before the murder.

Eagle must have returned to the club after Pc Smith passed at 12.35am, but before 12.45am when BS man would have walked past Mortimer's door and Schwartz arrived shortly after.

In other words, the only 8 to 10 minutes period available for Mortimer to have been standing at her door, was AFTER the Schwartz incident occurred.

Mortimer may have been at her door from 12.47am to 12.55am OR 12.48 to 12.56m or 12.49am - 12.57am or 12.50am - 12.58am

There are NO 8 minutes time slots available to her before the Schwartz incident.

12.35am PC Smith is there
12.40am Eagle is there
12.44am BS man is there
12.45am Schwartz is there
Lave is around at some point too and claims he went as far as the street.

Let's also not forget that PC Smith saw a couple a few yards from the gateway, that Mortimer didn't see.
Eagle tried the front door of the club and Mortimer didn't see that either.

Eagle also needs to have gone back into the club BEFORE BS man arrives to assault Stride

The issue is, Eagle sees nobody near the gateway, but Stride must have been there when he got back.


This is only explained IF Parcelman was Eagle.

That means that Eagle returns back earlier than he thought and when Pc Smith walks past, he sees Stride with Eagle.

Eagle then goes back into the club via the side door.

But Mortimer still couldn't have come out at 12.40am, because in under 5 minutes BS man would have been outside her door with Schwartz behind him.

Another key thing to consider is...


Where was Stride in all this?

Let's assume Stride is talking with Parcelman and PC Smith is correct.

This places Stride close to the gateway around 5 to 10 minutes before she is attacked by BS man.

We know that Stride must have been standing inside the gateway by 12.45am, because thats the approximate time she gets attacked.

We could bring Schwartz's timing forward to 12.42am, but then must account for BS man being there before Schwartz arrived and consider that Eagle must have already gone back in the club before Bs Man arrives.

We could push Schwartz's timing back to around 12.50am

This would ensure that Eagle is not there, PC Smith has long gone and that Stride would have been near the gateway around 10 minutes before she was murdered.

The issue then is that the more we push the timings closer to 1am, the more the chances are that BS man was the killer, because otherwise, where did he go BEFORE Mortimer come out to stand at her doorstep for 8 minutes?

As you can see, even if we tweak the timings forward and back to suit the hypothesis, there is still no way to explain how it all fits in.

Now if Schwartz saw the attack at 12.50am
Mortimer never came out her door at all until she heard there had been a murder
Eagle had gone back inside the club by 12.40am

Only then do we have a scenario whereby the Schwartz account could have happened

We know that Mortimer wasn't at her door when

Pc SMith
Eagle
Bs Man
Schwartz

were there.


I believe that EITHER Mortimer or Schwartz are the issue here.

Quite frankly, you can't have both because they just don't fit.


Schwartz's account COULD work IF Mortimer was never at her door and Eagle had gone back in the club.


With regards to timings, I don't believe altering times by more than 10 minutes is the right thing to do.

On that basis...

PC Smith 12.30-12.40am
Eagle 12.30 -12.40am
Schwartz incident 12.40-12.50am
Mortimer at her door... er... 12.48-12.58am

Or Mortimer comes and goes from her door 4 times between 12.30am - 12.58am, but every time only for a maximum stay of no more than 2 minutes each time. This makes up the minimum of 8 minutes that she would have stayed at her door collectively (having already reduced the 10 minutes down to 8 minutes just to squeeze her in) Incredibly, in each of the 4 visits, she misses Pc Smith, Eagle, Bs Man and Schwartz.

Or, she lied and never came to her door

Or she told the truth and was there for at least 8 minutes observing the street, but only AFTER Eagle had walked into Dutfiled's yard. This also means that Schwartz would have lied and BS Man and Pipeman never existed.

Also, IF the killer wasn't Eagle, Lave, Bs Man, Pipeman or Schwartz, then when did the killer get there?

If Schwartz account is correct, Eagle is innocent, and it leaves either Bs Man or Pipeman...

Unless Bs man and Pipeman have gone and then the real killer arrive out of nowhere and walks up and cuts her throat.

But the real killer couldn't have walked past Mortimer's door if she was there AFTER the Schwartz incident.


Ultimately, IF Schwartz's account is correct, regardless of whether it occurred at 12.45, 12.40 or 12.50am, it leaves no period of time for Mortimer to have been at her door.

Interestingly thought, we know that Mortimer did see Goldstein, and so she did stand at her door at some point.

Based on her witness statement, the only person who could have arrived in Berner Street to kill Stride AFTER Bs man had gone, was Goldstein, unless the killer came from the club OR one of the houses in the yard.

That would mean the killer was completely out of sight the entire time AFTER Bs Man had finished assaulting her.

The only man to have claimed to have walked from the side door to the street where the gateway was, and where Stride was after she was assaulted by Bs Man, was Lave himself; the man seeking refuge in the club.


Tweaking times for Schwartz and/or Mortimer still doesn't fit.

One of them is wrong or lying.


If not, then I ask again; someone show me a timeline whereby BOTH their statements can work.


It can't be done no matter how much time tweaking is done to try and explain away the fact that it can't be done.

Especially if the killer was the Ripper.



RD

Hi RD,

To me, from what you suggest, it looks like Eagle is causing the headache, so let's look at him.

Eagle says he returned about 12:40, so if he arrived shortly after PC Smith's 12:35 patrol (which would be a time one can describe as about 12:40), but before Fanny comes outside, there's no real issue any more. The rest, as I describe above, fit fine.

Also, we have to keep in mind that what people report seeing is only what they recall. Eagle even says he probably saw people about, but took no notice and can't be sure of what/who he saw. ( not quoting him directly, but he says words to that effect). So right there we have a witness telling us there may have been people about that he can't recall!

Fanny took notice of Goldstein, perhaps because he stood out by being in a hurry. She noted a young couple, again, they piqued her curiosity. A lone club member in no hurray is something she may easily have paid no attention to, and so like Eagle, she just doesn't recall seeing him. So there is that possibility to consider as well.

Witnesses don't remember every detail, so we would expect there to be some bits that don't quite align perfectly.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

So…

TA means time allowance which encompasses poorly synchronised clocks and the unreliability of estimations.

Smith passes 12.30-12.35 and sees the couple. (We could expect Smith to have been reasonably close as far as time goes and we can safely assume that he actually saw the couple)

We don’t know when the couple moved on but they weren’t there when Eagle returned because he surely couldn’t have missed seeing them. Eagle said that he returned at 12.35 but we don’t know how he arrived at that time so we have to accept an TA but between Smith passing and Eagle arriving the couple moved on.

Fanny comes onto her doorstep after hearing either Smith or Eagle pass so we can suggest 12.36/7.

Fanny estimates 10 minutes on her doorstep which has her going back inside at 12.46/7. (So either Schwartz 12.45 was actually 12.47 which is no stretch - or that Fanny’s 10 minutes was actual 7 or 8 which again is no stretch and allows Schwartz to pass at 12.45.)

I think it likelier though that the Schwartz incident occurred before Fanny came into her doorstep which again causes us no problems timewise as long as we don’t tie witnesses down to impossibly accurate estimations.

If we add this to the sheer unlikeliness of witnesses making things up i genuinely think that we have no mysteries here except for a few details like - did the couple that Smith saw include Stride, ditto for the couple that Brown saw? - why was Stride at the gates? - was she killed by the ripper or not?

[The Rookie Detective]

So…

TA means time allowance which encompasses poorly synchronised clocks and the unreliability of estimations.

Smith passes 12.30-12.35 and sees the couple. (We could expect Smith to have been reasonably close as far as time goes and we can safely assume that he actually saw the couple)

We don’t know when the couple moved on but they weren’t there when Eagle returned because he surely couldn’t have missed seeing them. Eagle said that he returned at 12.35 but we don’t know how he arrived at that time so we have to accept an TA but between Smith passing and Eagle arriving the couple moved on.

Fanny comes onto her doorstep after hearing either Smith or Eagle pass so we can suggest 12.36/7.

Fanny estimates 10 minutes on her doorstep which has her going back inside at 12.46/7. (So either Schwartz 12.45 was actually 12.47 which is no stretch - or that Fanny’s 10 minutes was actual 7 or 8 which again is no stretch and allows Schwartz to pass at 12.45.)

I think it likelier though that the Schwartz incident occurred before Fanny came into her doorstep which again causes us no problems timewise as long as we don’t tie witnesses down to impossibly accurate estimations.

If we add this to the sheer unlikeliness of witnesses making things up i genuinely think that we have no mysteries here except for a few details like - did the couple that Smith saw include Stride, ditto for the couple that Brown saw? - why was Stride at the gates? - was she killed by the ripper or not?

Okay, some of that works I agree.


So based on your timeline you have Pc Smith between 12.30am - 12.35am. That is generally accepted as accurate. Any earlier than 12.30am wouldn't be due to his next beat arrival after the murder.
I would suggest that a more refined time of somewhere between 12.32am 12.35am is as close as we can get for Pc Smith.

And so, based on PC Smith's viewpoint, Stride is already standing close to the yard with Parcelman. Thus Stride is standing near to her murder site no later than 12.30am, because she is already there when PC Smith walks past.

So far, so good...

Now, regarding Eagle, you state approximately 12.35am, whereas I would suggest nearer to 12.40am. The reason being is that if Eagle arrives at 12.35am, he would have seen Stride, based on PC Smith's timings.

The other options are...Parcelman and Stride walk off somewhere with the parcel after PC Smith has passed at 12.35am, but are gone BEFORE Eagle arrives. My time of 12.40am gives Parcelman and Stride more time to go before Eagle arrives, whereas your time of 12.35am gives no time for Parcelman and Stride to go before Eagle sees them.
Bearing in mind that Smith doesn't see Eagle and far as I am aware, Eagle would have been walking from the direction that Pc Smith would have been travelling?

If so, then why didn't they see each other?

Now IF Eagle returns closer to 12.40am, it should give enough time for Parcelman to have gone, Pc Smith to have gone and Eagle to have arrived back at the club.

The issue is, there's no evidence to suggest that Stride left with Parcelman. But she must have gone somewhere because Eagle didn't see her.


Of course, IF Parcelman was Eagle, then it solves all the above.

Eagle returns at 12.35am (as you said) just as Pc Smith approaches. Pc Smith then sees Eagle standing with Stride. He is perhaps holding a parcel full of illegal contraband Cigars for a late-night lock-in party at the club.

Eagle may have even given/sold one of his cigars to Pipeman.

Or perhaps Lave was Pipeman, who picked up a Cigar from Parcelman as he came out to the street for some fresh air?

IF Eagle was Parcelman, and Lave was Pipeman, then it would explain away the need for Parcelman and Stride to need to leave before Eagle said he returned.


But I also have a way we can eradicate BS Man.

Bs man needed to have arrived BEFORE Schwartz...and based on your timings, that would mean BS man needs to be there before 12.45 or 12.47am, but regardless, 12.45am is the latest that Bs Man could have got there.

But we have Parcelman and Stride there at 12.40am


this begs the question...

What if Eagle was Parcelman and he and Stride went nowhere, because she was there on behalf of her new lover to buy some contraband?

Could her lover who she was seen with outside the Bricklayer's Arms at 11pm have been a dealer in illegal cigars?

This would explain the parcel

This would explain Goldstein's later "empty black bag"


And so, what IF Parcelman and Stride were there to do some business, but the deal goes wrong?

In other words, could Eagle have been Parcelman have Parcelman have ALSO been Bs Man?

If Stride's Yiddish wasn't as effective as she thought and/or if she said something along the lines of... "I am not going to buy your cigars" then he may have become angered.

Imagine this scenario...


Parcelman and Stride are talking, Stride is dressed to impress and sent to seal the deal. Eagle is street dealing and supplying to the club for the night.

Stride has a packet of Cachou on her person because part of their role is to taste test the merchandise before buying. She needs the Cachou to take away the taste of the Cigar.

He offers her to try one, and she accepts but makes the mistake of taking the box from him.

For whatever reason the deal goes south and Parcelman becomes angry and the box somehow falls onto the floor inside the gateway. out of sight.

Eagle gestures to go to the main entrance, which is locked and meaning he has to walk past Stride...

It's then at THIS point that he walks BACK to Stride, just as Schwartz arrives.

It then plays out just as Schwartz says.


Bs Man aka Eagle assaults Stride, then notices Schwartz and shouts "Lipski"

Lave aka Parcelman who has walked as far as the corner of the street looks up just as he is about light the cigar he got from Eagle.


Schwartz runs, Lave gives a half-hearted chase. He is more interested in smoking his cigar.

In the meantime, Eagle has threatened Stride who is still lying on the floor. He picks up the box and walks back inside the club.

Stride picks herself up and composes herself just as Pipeman aka Lave walks into the yard.

He sees she is in distress and offers her his cigar that he has just lit.

She accepts, and this time tries the cigar, but as she expects it's a cheap poorly made product.

He bids her goodnight and she replies in Yiddish

She takes out her Cachou.


Unfortunately, Stride is unaware that Lave has drawn out a knife and before she can react he pulls her back by her scarf and cuts her throat before she can make a sound. He places her down, puts his knife away and walks back into the club at 12.55am

Eagle then has to state he never saw anyone or anything to cover the assault

The club then needs to destroy the contraband, using Goldstein as a witness decoy to explain the "empty black bag"

The club discovers that Lave has a history of violence, having been on the run for a reason, and he leaves soon after the murder.


The club then covers up the murder, but the press and WVC get wind of it and so send in Le Grand, who pushes through the idea it's a Ripper killing with the generic witness account that he forces Packer to give.


Bachert and Le Grand then use the fake letters; some written by Bachert himself to drive through the idea of the double event.


The murder of Eddowes later that night is just one retrospective coincidence.


Eagle also has the opportunity to dispose of the murder weapon when he goes to the police station shortly after the murder.



And all of the above, just to give Schwartz's account some contextual justification.



RD

[Herlock Sholmes]

Okay, some of that works I agree.


So based on your timeline you have Pc Smith between 12.30am - 12.35am. That is generally accepted as accurate. Any earlier than 12.30am wouldn't be due to his next beat arrival after the murder.
I would suggest that a more refined time of somewhere between 12.32am 12.35am is as close as we can get for Pc Smith.

And so, based on PC Smith's viewpoint, Stride is already standing close to the yard with Parcelman. Thus Stride is standing near to her murder site no later than 12.30am, because she is already there when PC Smith walks past.

So far, so good...

Now, regarding Eagle, you state approximately 12.35am, whereas I would suggest nearer to 12.40am. The reason being is that if Eagle arrives at 12.35am, he would have seen Stride, based on PC Smith's timings.

The other options are...Parcelman and Stride walk off somewhere with the parcel after PC Smith has passed at 12.35am, but are gone BEFORE Eagle arrives. My time of 12.40am gives Parcelman and Stride more time to go before Eagle arrives, whereas your time of 12.35am gives no time for Parcelman and Stride to go before Eagle sees them.
Bearing in mind that Smith doesn't see Eagle and far as I am aware, Eagle would have been walking from the direction that Pc Smith would have been travelling?

If so, then why didn't they see each other?

Now IF Eagle returns closer to 12.40am, it should give enough time for Parcelman to have gone, Pc Smith to have gone and Eagle to have arrived back at the club.

The issue is, there's no evidence to suggest that Stride left with Parcelman. But she must have gone somewhere because Eagle didn't see her.


Of course, IF Parcelman was Eagle, then it solves all the above.

Eagle returns at 12.35am (as you said) just as Pc Smith approaches. Pc Smith then sees Eagle standing with Stride. He is perhaps holding a parcel full of illegal contraband Cigars for a late-night lock-in party at the club.

Eagle may have even given/sold one of his cigars to Pipeman.

Or perhaps Lave was Pipeman, who picked up a Cigar from Parcelman as he came out to the street for some fresh air?

IF Eagle was Parcelman, and Lave was Pipeman, then it would explain away the need for Parcelman and Stride to need to leave before Eagle said he returned.


But I also have a way we can eradicate BS Man.

Bs man needed to have arrived BEFORE Schwartz...and based on your timings, that would mean BS man needs to be there before 12.45 or 12.47am, but regardless, 12.45am is the latest that Bs Man could have got there.

But we have Parcelman and Stride there at 12.40am


this begs the question...

What if Eagle was Parcelman and he and Stride went nowhere, because she was there on behalf of her new lover to buy some contraband?

Could her lover who she was seen with outside the Bricklayer's Arms at 11pm have been a dealer in illegal cigars?

This would explain the parcel

This would explain Goldstein's later "empty black bag"


And so, what IF Parcelman and Stride were there to do some business, but the deal goes wrong?

In other words, could Eagle have been Parcelman have Parcelman have ALSO been Bs Man?

If Stride's Yiddish wasn't as effective as she thought and/or if she said something along the lines of... "I am not going to buy your cigars" then he may have become angered.

Imagine this scenario...


Parcelman and Stride are talking, Stride is dressed to impress and sent to seal the deal. Eagle is street dealing and supplying to the club for the night.

Stride has a packet of Cachou on her person because part of their role is to taste test the merchandise before buying. She needs the Cachou to take away the taste of the Cigar.

He offers her to try one, and she accepts but makes the mistake of taking the box from him.

For whatever reason the deal goes south and Parcelman becomes angry and the box somehow falls onto the floor inside the gateway. out of sight.

Eagle gestures to go to the main entrance, which is locked and meaning he has to walk past Stride...

It's then at THIS point that he walks BACK to Stride, just as Schwartz arrives.

It then plays out just as Schwartz says.


Bs Man aka Eagle assaults Stride, then notices Schwartz and shouts "Lipski"

Lave aka Parcelman who has walked as far as the corner of the street looks up just as he is about light the cigar he got from Eagle.


Schwartz runs, Lave gives a half-hearted chase. He is more interested in smoking his cigar.

In the meantime, Eagle has threatened Stride who is still lying on the floor. He picks up the box and walks back inside the club.

Stride picks herself up and composes herself just as Pipeman aka Lave walks into the yard.

He sees she is in distress and offers her his cigar that he has just lit.

She accepts, and this time tries the cigar, but as she expects it's a cheap poorly made product.

He bids her goodnight and she replies in Yiddish

She takes out her Cachou.


Unfortunately, Stride is unaware that Lave has drawn out a knife and before she can react he pulls her back by her scarf and cuts her throat before she can make a sound. He places her down, puts his knife away and walks back into the club at 12.55am

Eagle then has to state he never saw anyone or anything to cover the assault

The club then needs to destroy the contraband, using Goldstein as a witness decoy to explain the "empty black bag"

The club discovers that Lave has a history of violence, having been on the run for a reason, and he leaves soon after the murder.


The club then covers up the murder, but the press and WVC get wind of it and so send in Le Grand, who pushes through the idea it's a Ripper killing with the generic witness account that he forces Packer to give.


Bachert and Le Grand then use the fake letters; some written by Bachert himself to drive through the idea of the double event.


The murder of Eddowes later that night is just one retrospective coincidence.


Eagle also has the opportunity to dispose of the murder weapon when he goes to the police station shortly after the murder.



And all of the above, just to give Schwartz's account some contextual justification.



RD

I’ll certainly respond to this RD but it may be tomorrow as I have a swarm of family about to descend and they are bringing alcohol in sizeable quantities.