Berner Street: No Plot, No Mystery

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi NW,

We have no way, as far as I’m aware, of gauging the size of that ground floor room. We know that upstairs was a large room used for lectures but i don’t think that we know if that was the only room. We know that there were at least two rooms on the ground floor though. The one that you’ve mentioned and the kitchen. Wess said that after the evenings meeting and most attendees had gone home there were 20-30 members left in the club. Some still upstairs and some went to the downstairs room.

[New Waterloo]

Its very early in the morning and I am tired. But I will throw another idea into the pot. I have been thinking about the Stride murder (havn't we all) and its a right muddle up as they say in Norfolk! I have tried thinking of a fresh scenario and what about this. The murder does take place earlier (bear with me) whilst Fanny is not looking, PC Smith has exited the area. whoever else is in the street at about 1245hrs are players in this.

There is an incident just inside Dutfield Yard gates with a few people involved. Now we don't know what the incident is but at least part of it is witnessed by Schwartz who leaves the scene.

The players in the game go into the downstairs of the club/kitchen to decide what to do because they know AT THIS TIME that a person lies dead in the yard. Before they decide they are interrupted by Diemschutz entering the yard with his horse and cart. Nobody would have been aware of the exact time he would be arriving back.

In other words he is not the person who discovers the body. There is some evidence which may support this. He says at the inquest No.

'I went into the club and asked where my wife was. I found her in the front room on the ground floor.
[Coroner] What did you do with the pony? - I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door. There were several members in the front room of the club, and I told them all that there was a woman lying in the yard, though I could not say whether she was drunk or dead. I then got a candle and went into the yard, where I could see blood before I reached the body'.

'How big was this front room and what were several members doing there?'

There is no choice now no options. They all start running around like headless chickens shouting murder, lets go and get the police.

Why would they not get the police as soon as they realize somebody has been killed. Well because whatever the incident was it was illegal, or that a killing was the last thing they needed when the police have already been attending disorder on previous occasions. They needed a few minutes to think and discuss what to do. Thats all they got because in drives Diemschutz.

So Diemschutz does arrive back at 0100hrs and 'discover' the body THAT SOME ARE ALREADY AWARE OF and Schwartz does see part of the incident. Because of the dark Morris Eagle enters without seeing the body or slightly before the incident. Goldstein is probably involved somehow.

I am still thinking about this

I dont know. I think I am going back to bed

NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

Many of us on here have put forward possible timeline’s of events in Berner Street for discussion. None of us have claimed that these are set-in-stone, just that they are possible explanations of how things might have panned out that night using the stated times but with an allowance for differences from clock to clock to watch and also an allowance for how accurately/inaccurately people estimate periods of time. It’s surprising therefore, to put it mildly, that the one person who has a longstanding, worked out theory as to how things occurred differently consistently refuses to put forward his own timeline to explain how he feels that events occurred. It’s one thing to alight on certain witnesses and make claims about who can or can’t be trusted it’s another to put forward a cogent timeline and then to defend it against possible criticism from other posters. So I think that it’s entirely reasonable to ask yet again….


Michael, could you please put forward your timeline of events in Berner Street that evening from 12.30 until Dr. Blackwell arrived please? The rest of us have all done it and have been entirely prepared to be questioned and possibly disagreed with. You are the person who for years has been proposing a version of events that is entirely different to the ‘official’ version and so I would have assumed that rather than simply criticising the opinions of others you would take a more proactive approach by setting out in detail your own version of events so that they can be discussed.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Any chance of actually getting answers on these few?


Why did Fanny Mortimer not see Eagle or Stride or her killer or anyone going for a Constable at around 12.40?

Why didn’t Fanny or anyone else see or hear Louis’ cart returning at around 12.40?

Why did Kozebrodsky say that he found out about the body at 12.40 and Heschberg at 12.45 if the body was found at around 12.30 according to what Spooner said?

If Spooner was correct then Lamb must have got to the yard at around 12.40 (5 minutes after Lamb) How could it be ok for Lamb to be 20 minutes out but it’s not ok to suggest that Koz and Hesch were wrong?

What are the chances of Fanny hearing a horse and cart at around 1.00 and it wasn’t Louis?

Why is it such a problem that no one saw or heard the incident at around 1.00 but apparently it’s not a problem that no one saw or heard a horse and cart clattering along Berner Street at around 12.40?

Did Brown lie or imagine the voices shouting for a Constable at around 1.00?

If Lamb got to the yard much earlier than 1.05ish as claimed then how could it possibly have taken Johnson and Blackwell takes so long to arrive.

Why did the alleged false witness Schwartz manage to put a knife in the hand of the wrong man?

[FrankO]

Eagle is the reason Johnson is there at all Frank. Its his report of the crime that starts the full response by the authorities. Lamb is just the beat cop who got the news from Eagle. And one thing you wrote above you obviously didnt read.....the PC didnt go fetch Johnson until after Eagle announced the crime to the inspector. The PC didnt go to Johnsons while simultaneously Eagle went to see the Inspector...the inspector sent the PC after talking with Eagle. So no-one is at Johnsons door until after Eagle had notified the Inspector...

Okay, Michael, if you post the newspaper snippets that show your conclusion above is correct, then I'll reconsider.

And I'm curious as to where the PC went that Lamb sent for the nearest doctor, so let me know that as well.

If you cannot see that all indicates that Louis first notified Eagle and sent him out before 1am, then you will never understand what happened there.

Not if you at least give some timeline of the events between Diemshutz discovering Stride and Blackwell arriving in the yard.

Cheers,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

I know Herlock, the witnesses were all at the ready with Hat and Coat to go to the scene of the crime they didnt know had been committed yet.

I made no claim about all witnesses being ready. Just reduce the hysteria for a minute. I simply stated a fact. Johnson did not say that he was in bed. You claimed that he was undressed when there’s no evidence that he was so please don’t try turning this around. The simplest thing would have been for you to have admitted to being wrong.

Eagle even goes back in time to leave for help before he is seen asking for it at Commercial, because you cant see someone somewhere at or just before 1 when they are not even going to be there for another 5-10 minutes...oh, yeah.

He said ‘around 1.00.’ You cherry pick ‘before 1.00.’ Again. Louis 1.00 - Eagle/Lamb around 1.05. There are no issues apart from invented ones.

In Herlock Town no-one is leashed by reason or witness provided times....all will be well once The Herly just changes a few statements around. Makes the anarchists the Good Guys, and the Cops and medical authorities the people who cant even read a clock.

I make no one the ‘good guys’ or the ‘bad guys.’ Michael. Please stay within reason. You are the one who has assumed the club members to be ‘bad guys’ so that you can discredit their testimony.

Youve been told so many times about errors you make in simply reciting the evidence verbatim, the weak and improbable positions you take on issues that are quite frankly.. transparently... incorrect, and you smugly state that others are wrong when you have provided nothing but your revised witness accounts to support your statements. To have won an argument old boy, you must first win one. Like claiming youve scaled Everest when you know nothing about the mountain that isnt found in pictures of it, and have never stepped foot on it. But go ahead, plant your flag, Ill just toss it back over the edge when you leave.

The last part is just hysterical so I won’t respond.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Eagle is the reason Johnson is there at all Frank. Its his report of the crime that starts the full response by the authorities. Lamb is just the beat cop who got the news from Eagle. And one thing you wrote above you obviously didnt read.....the PC didnt go fetch Johnson until after Eagle announced the crime to the inspector. The PC didnt go to Johnsons while simultaneously Eagle went to see the Inspector...the inspector sent the PC after talking with Eagle. So no-one is at Johnsons door until after Eagle had notified the Inspector...at what time seems to be the consensus, around 1:10. Then PC goes to 100 Commercial, gets Johnson, and Johnson wakes Blackwell. That would be around 1:15 at the earliest...if Eagle did first arrive to see the Inspector by 1:10am. Then the PC and Johnson go to the crime scene, at around 1:16-1:17. So they would be there at around what.....1:19-1:20ish? See any problems with that? I sure hope so, my faith in the common sense perceptions of others cannot survive many more challenges.

Lamb said he saw Eagle at or just before 1am, Johnson said he was there on the scene at 3-4 minutes before Blackwell arrived, and Blackwell said he arrived at 1:16.

If you cannot see that all indicates that Louis first notified Eagle and sent him out before 1am, then you will never understand what happened there.

Are you reading about a case in a parallel universe Michael???

You say: “The PC didnt go to Johnsons while simultaneously Eagle went to see the Inspector...the inspector sent the PC after talking with Eagle. So no-one is at Johnsons door until after Eagle had notified the Inspector“


Your’e simply making things up Michael

LAMB SENT THE PC….NOT THE INSPECTOR…..how hard can this be Michael? It’s just reading after all.

PC Lamb (not the Inspector)

“I sent the other constable for the nearest doctor,”

[Michael W Richards]

I know Herlock, the witnesses were all at the ready with Hat and Coat to go to the scene of the crime they didnt know had been committed yet. Eagle even goes back in time to leave for help before he is seen asking for it at Commercial, because you cant see someone somewhere at or just before 1 when they are not even going to be there for another 5-10 minutes...oh, yeah. In Herlock Town no-one is leashed by reason or witness provided times....all will be well once The Herly just changes a few statements around. Makes the anarchists the Good Guys, and the Cops and medical authorities the people who cant even read a clock.

Youve been told so many times about errors you make in simply reciting the evidence verbatim, the weak and improbable positions you take on issues that are quite frankly.. transparently... incorrect, and you smugly state that others are wrong when you have provided nothing but your revised witness accounts to support your statements. To have won an argument old boy, you must first win one. Like claiming youve scaled Everest when you know nothing about the mountain that isnt found in pictures of it, and have never stepped foot on it. But go ahead, plant your flag, Ill just toss it back over the edge when you leave.

[Herlock Sholmes]

By the way, the preponderance of evidence available says that there are 2 people, who were inside the club and had clock access,

Could you provide the proof that there was a clock?
And if there was could you provide the proof that Koz and Heschberg could see it from where they were sitting?
And if they couldn’t see it from where they were sitting could you explain why they would go and check the clock before going to see the body?
And if they were basing their times on a previous sighting if a click could you tell us how much time had elapsed since then?

I’m sure that you’ll know the answers to the above?

say they were with Louis over the body in the passageway around 12:40, an additional witness says he was there about 12:35.. Yet he did not have any reference point for time and can be given leeway on the exact time he was at the gates, and all of these people could see each other at those times.

Could you let me know where Spooner, Kozebrodsky and Heschberg specifically mention seeing each other? I’ll send you a cigar if you can.

No-one sees Louis arrive or when, no one sees Eagle arrive...or when, and Lamb did not say he first saw Eaqle at around 1:05. He said, at the Inquest, transcribed by a Daily Tegraph reporter on Wednes the 3rd, ..."Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting."

And again we’re back to quoting the entirely isolate ‘just before’ when it suits you. You should be better than these tactics Michael. Please stick to quotes without cherrypicking ‘one offs.’

Stop putting your own words in witness mouths please,... they never, ever gave times you now want to assign to their own statements, and secondly they can speak for themselves. And did.

I’m just speechless at that last comments. Discussion is impossible if this is your tactic. Please address the facts without baseless accusations. I’ve recently posted a long list of the witnesses whose time that I accept. Rather more than you do. And I don’t just select a group of ‘bad’ witnesses to dismiss out of hand either… your ‘club mob.’

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hello Michael

is there any indication that Johnston was asleep at the time? He mentions Blackwell was in bed but why do you think Johnston was?

Beat me to it Kattrup.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thats some great detective work Herlock. And what time did Johnson say he was there? 3 or 4 minutes before Blackwell, who isnt being disputed as having arrived at "1:16am" as he stated.

So Johnson gets there, awake and dressed within just 3 or 4 minutes huh? Amazing. After first being woken from sleep at just after 1:10? Was Johnson living in those stables I wonder, since no human could have been there that quickly if not as close as that.

And Lamb says that he saw Eagle at, or just before 1am, yet you claim in post # that Lamb actually saw him at 5 after 1. Wow....did you find another quote from him that states that, or are you just making s*** up as you go again?

Just so we all stay on page with you....Lambs wrong on his time, Johnsons wrong on his time, Spooner is contradicted by himself?..(that one is a doozy), Hescheberg is wrong with his time, Issac Kozebrodski is wrong with not only his time but whom he went searching with, Blackwells times is wrong, and so is Phillips. Its just good old Herlock that has all the times corrected now by simply negating what the witnesses actually said about the time and inserting what times work for Herlock.... Whew. Glad thats settled.
Sarcasm aside, I think what we all should trust is that when Herlock says he has figured things out..............

Using actual evidence in this case solves nothing for you, right Herly? Just change all the reliable times and insert all the anarchist ones. Everones happy.

Truly pathetic.

Blackwell lived 175 yards from the club. This means that it would have taken Johnson between 90 seconds and 2 minutes to walk from where he lived to the yard.

So (as ever allowing a couple of minutes here and there) we have the two Constable’s and Lamb arriving at the yard at around 1.05. The Constable is sent to Blackwell’s and arrives there at around 1.07 (90 seconds to 2 minutes walk remember) Johnson goes upstairs and tells Blackwell then takes the return walk (still 90 seconds to 2 minutes remember) and gets to the yard at around 1.10.

Again you invent things to add time “So Johnson gets there, awake and dressed within just 3 or 4 minutes huh? Amazing. After first being woken from sleep at just after 1:10?”

Telegraph: “I received a call from Constable 436 H. After informing Dr. Blackwell, who was in bed,“

Times: “I received a call from constable 436 H. After informing Dr. Blackwell, who was in bed, of the nature of the case,”

Blackwell was in bed but nowhere does it state that Johnson was in bed. He went upstairs, told Blackwell, back downstairs and out.

He arrived at around 1.10. Blackwell at 1.16.

Leave out the manipulations Michael and you’ll get there eventually.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael,

Again, Eagle went to the station to fetch the inspector, while PC 426 H was sent for the nearest doctor, which was Blackwell, who had his residence at 100, Commercial Road and whose assistant was Johnson. That means, of course, that Eagle had nothing to do with Johnson arriving in the yard when he did. If you think that things were different, then let me know and, more importantly, let me know based on what evidence you think things were different.

Furthermore, I’ve provided evidence that Eagle arrived at the police station at around 1:10 and that this timing goes very well with Blackwell’s timing of 1:16. Then stating that Eagle must have been sent from the yard by Lamb at about 1:05 doesn’t violate the evidence and the timings of 1:10 and 1:16 in the least.

Based on the distances involved from the yard to where Lamb was found and from the yard, through Fairclough Street, to Grove Street, it’s perfectly possible that Diemshutz arrived in the yard a couple of minutes before 1 am – on Blackwell’s watch.

That's all I'm going to say about it.

All the best,
Frank

Eagle is the reason Johnson is there at all Frank. Its his report of the crime that starts the full response by the authorities. Lamb is just the beat cop who got the news from Eagle. And one thing you wrote above you obviously didnt read.....the PC didnt go fetch Johnson until after Eagle announced the crime to the inspector. The PC didnt go to Johnsons while simultaneously Eagle went to see the Inspector...the inspector sent the PC after talking with Eagle. So no-one is at Johnsons door until after Eagle had notified the Inspector...at what time seems to be the consensus, around 1:10. Then PC goes to 100 Commercial, gets Johnson, and Johnson wakes Blackwell. That would be around 1:15 at the earliest...if Eagle did first arrive to see the Inspector by 1:10am. Then the PC and Johnson go to the crime scene, at around 1:16-1:17. So they would be there at around what.....1:19-1:20ish? See any problems with that? I sure hope so, my faith in the common sense perceptions of others cannot survive many more challenges.

Lamb said he saw Eagle at or just before 1am, Johnson said he was there on the scene at 3-4 minutes before Blackwell arrived, and Blackwell said he arrived at 1:16.

If you cannot see that all indicates that Louis first notified Eagle and sent him out before 1am, then you will never understand what happened there.

[Michael W Richards]

In this murder we have people suggesting strangers enter the scene and leave it without any witness seeing or hearing them, we have witnesses from the club that give statements that do not validate other witnesses, even others from the same club, we have witnesses that were not sure whether a body was there when they walked by that very spot at 12:40, we have witnesses that are known to be presumed part of a lawless anarchist element of Socialism and give times that not one of the officials times can marry with, and we have a woman given the stand at the Inquest that stated the woman killed wasnt Liz Stride at all...despite the fact that friends have already identified her as such and the police already knew she was Not Mary Malcoms sister, Elizabeth Watts.

To top it all we have folks propogating the myth that Liz Strides murder is in keeping with the prior 2 murders committed by an unknown they now called Jack and should be considered a Ripper victim.

Much of this murder, and its investigation, is unknown and unexplained. Anyone tells you different, well........they either dont know the case or they drank the Ripper lemonade.

[FrankO]

If Eagle was sent to notify the station, so that they could notify Johnson, so that he could be there at 3-4 minutes before Blackwell, at 1:16....then at what time did Louis first get off his cart? Before he went indoors. Before Eagle and others came down to see whats up, before Issac K is first sent out, and Eagle leaves..then Louis and Issac[s]? Issac cannot find anyone so he heads out to find Eagle who has caught the attention of Lamb at, or just before, 1am.

Would Morris Eagle have been on Commercial where he is seen by Lamb at just before or at 1am if Louis first arrives just after 1am? Not a trick question...obviously not.

Hi Michael,

Again, Eagle went to the station to fetch the inspector, while PC 426 H was sent for the nearest doctor, which was Blackwell, who had his residence at 100, Commercial Road and whose assistant was Johnson. That means, of course, that Eagle had nothing to do with Johnson arriving in the yard when he did. If you think that things were different, then let me know and, more importantly, let me know based on what evidence you think things were different.

Furthermore, I’ve provided evidence that Eagle arrived at the police station at around 1:10 and that this timing goes very well with Blackwell’s timing of 1:16. Then stating that Eagle must have been sent from the yard by Lamb at about 1:05 doesn’t violate the evidence and the timings of 1:10 and 1:16 in the least.

Based on the distances involved from the yard to where Lamb was found and from the yard, through Fairclough Street, to Grove Street, it’s perfectly possible that Diemshutz arrived in the yard a couple of minutes before 1 am – on Blackwell’s watch.

That's all I'm going to say about it.

All the best,
Frank

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael

is there any indication that Johnston was asleep at the time? He mentions Blackwell was in bed but why do you think Johnston was?

Since it is after 1am its hardly a stretch that he would be retired when Constable 436H called him. Or did he call upon him, it does seem like he woke Blackwell from bed when he heard the news and that implies they may be in the same residence at that time. But Johnson never says in any interview that Ive found that he was awake at the time the constable showed up. He also doesnt say "I was in bed", but I dont believe that at 1am its a huge stretch to think he had retired for the night.

Even if he was awake, dont let the trees obscure the forest here. If Lamb saw Eagle as he was out looking for help, and Lamb was correct that it was just before or at 1am, and Eagle doesnt even notify the station until 1:10ish, then how can Johnson, dressed or not, be at 40 Berner St at 1:12-1:13? He cant.

It seems you, like some other posters, do not factor in any time taken by any of these witness to first process then act. Its like all of these people were just standing by waiting for the go-sign. They werent.