Throat-slitting and Stride

[Observer]

Your analysis holds no water.

And I could (do?) say the same of yours.

The difference between us is that I am simply playing with ideas in search of that illuminating insight - you actually (and rather pomposly) seem to believe you are RIGHT.

Do you have anything positive to contribute? If not, please GET OFF MY BACK!!

Phil

You what! It was you who stuck your nose in pal. I was replying to Mike Richards when you offered your opinion. Now, when I don't agree with you, you are throwing one of your infamous strops.

You can play around with your ideas all you like, it still doesn't put a large parcel wrapped in newspaper into the hand of the individual Marshall saw with Liz Stride on the night in question.

[The Good Michael]

Maybe I can't find this information, or I haven't been willing to wade through all the tedious posts regarding this, but what does it matter if Stride was soliciting or not on the night of her murder? Is it the idea that JTR never would have approached her on that particular night? Or is it the belief that the victims actively solicited JTR and that led to their demise? Is it the belief that there was no JTR and this would be another feather in the cap of those few people who follow that path?

Mike

[c.d.]

Hello (yet again) CD. Thanks.

"So are you suggesting that when the police asked these people whether Liz ever solicited they only asked that question in relation to just one week?"

No, but was she soliciting whilst with Kidney?

By the way, how would these people know what Liz was about?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

You ask the was she soliciting while with Kidney question as though you know the answer. I certainly don't know but I would not be surprised if that were the case, if only occasionally and maybe without him knowing it.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello (yet again) CD. Thanks.

"So are you suggesting that when the police asked these people whether Liz ever solicited they only asked that question in relation to just one week?"

No, but was she soliciting whilst with Kidney?

By the way, how would these people know what Liz was about?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

If I had to guess, I would expect that the police spoke to her friends and acquaintances as opposed to perfect strangers who didn't know Liz. Since the police report described her as a prostitute (or was it unfortunate), I would expect that that was the description given by those who knew her. I suppose it is possible that the people they spoke to described her as a nun or a shopkeeper and that somehow got changed in the police report to prostitute. Maybe by those pesky extra-terrestrials that seem to inhabit your posts.

c.d.

[Phil H]

Your analysis holds no water.

And I could (do?) say the same of yours.

The difference between us is that I am simply playing with ideas in search of that illuminating insight - you actually (and rather pomposly) seem to believe you are RIGHT.

Do you have anything positive to contribute? If not, please GET OFF MY BACK!!

Phil

[Observer]

[ I have hugged people while holding something in one hand.

I'm sure you have.

How would he be able to achieve this and hold onto a parcel at the same time? Marshall did not see a parcel in the possession of the man.

Have you never held something and done something else at the same time? I have hugged people while holding something in one hand.
(scarf, book, hat) even in both.

People also have pockets. the parcel might have been in his other hand when Marshall saw him.

I don't see either issue you raise as insuperable.

In his pocket? Come off it. The parcel was 18 inches in length, and 6 to 8 inches in width. And even if he held it in one hand and hugged Liz Stride with the other it would have been easily visible to Marshall. Your analysis holds no water.

On age - people can be mistaken. A moustache can age a man. It was dark, at best by gaslight.

I don't again see the points you raise as being impossible to counter.

In summation, you appear to be intent upon seeing Liz in the worst light, I in a better one. I doubt we'll ever agree - nor do I care.

Phil

Swapping posts with you can age a man! That's for sure. Lets disagree on the age difference.

Also

I see Liz Stride as being in the company of at least two different individuals that night. Consequently I believe she was soliciting, as the police did at the time. It's not a question of seeing her in the worst light. And believe me I care even less for your musings regarding the WCM.

Observer

[Phil H]

How would he be able to achieve this and hold onto a parcel at the same time? Marshall did not see a parcel in the possession of the man.

Have you never held something and done something else at the same time? I have hugged people while holding something in one hand (scarf, book, hat) even in both.

People also have pockets. the parcel might have been in his other hand when Marshall saw him.

I don't see either issue you raise as insuperable.

On age - people can be mistaken. A moustache can age a man. It was dark, at best by gaslight.

I don't again see the points you raise as being impossible to counter.

In summation, you appear to be intent upon seeing Liz in the worst light, I in a better one. I doubt we'll ever agree - nor do I care.

Phil

[Observer]

Hello (again) CD. Thanks.

"I expect after Tabram, Nichols and Chapman had been killed that she would have been suspicious of any client."

But the furor was dying down.

Cheers.
LC

More myth. The furore was anything but dying down

[Observer]

Inteseresting.

I'd say those descriptions might all be of the same man - given that in late September the nights are drawing in and it would be quite dark, the lighting in the streets etc would throw shadows quite different to those we are used to.

On hats, we are not looking at photographs, but hearing people's recollections.
Phil

Hi Phil

How do you reconcile for the paper parcel that PC Smith's man held as he stood with Liz Stride? Remember, Liz Stride and the man seen by Marshall were being intimate in Berner Street, kissing, and he undoubtedly had hold of her. How would he be able to achieve this and hold onto a parcel at the same time? Marshall did not see a parcel in the possession of the man.

Also, how can you explain the age discrepancy between Marshall's middle aged man, and PC Smiths young man of 28 or thereabouts? Poorly lit streets or not, I'd say the age discrepancy mentioned suggests two different individuals.

So, all in all, I'd say Liz Stride was in the company of at least two different men on the night of her death. And that's leaving Schwartz, and the man as seen by Brown out of the equation to boot.

Regards

Observer

[lynn cates]

to know

Hello (yet again) CD. Thanks.

"So are you suggesting that when the police asked these people whether Liz ever solicited they only asked that question in relation to just one week?"

No, but was she soliciting whilst with Kidney?

By the way, how would these people know what Liz was about?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Der furor

Hello (again) CD. Thanks.

"I expect after Tabram, Nichols and Chapman had been killed that she would have been suspicious of any client."

But the furor was dying down.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

extra, extra

Hello CD.

My summary:

"Liz on a date - she could have been killed by extra-terrestrials.

Liz soliciting - she could have been killed by extra-terrestrials."

Not like I believe in them, but neither do I believe in Jack. Of course, ANYTHING is possible.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

If she had to prostitute herself to put food on the table or have doss money does that make her a prostitute or merely surviving as best she can?

If the cost of a "knee trembler" was the same as a bed-which it seems to have been the case, then, has this discussion turned to "condemn the victim" rather than look for the killer?

I believe she had a product to sell and did the best she could to sell that product, yes I also believe the product was herself.

And that would make her a prostitute. No moral judgment needs to be included in that conclusion.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello (again) Jon. Thanks.

"If she was a prostitute before she met him, and now she is back on the streets after, what special pleading should we acknowledge to suggest she was a reformed woman?"

Reformed? Her calvinist tendencies mean little to me (heh-heh).

Seriously, the questions are:

1. Other than having a child out of wedlock at 16, was she a prostitute?

2. IF she were, was she soliciting the night she died?

"What limited their inquiries to this particular week?"

Because that was the week she was not with Kidney (recall your hypothesis).

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

So are you suggesting that when the police asked these people whether Liz ever solicited they only asked that question in relation to just one week?

c.d.

[c.d.]

[QUOTE=Wickerman;273764]It is clear that you disagree, not only with myself on this issue, but with Stewart, and with the conclusions of Swanson, as written at the time after he enquired "into her history", and interviewing her "friends, associates and anyone who knew her".

Yes, an excellent point. You would certainly have to think that they would have asked the people who knew Liz if she ever solicited.

c.d.