Throat-slitting and Stride

[Aethelwulf]

what are thoughts on the coram knife? sounds like an unlikely weapon to me and the timings seem a bit out? But also intrigued by what sounds like a badly neglected horse falling down in the area around the time discovered.

[Observer]

I am not sure of - and you'll find I have rarely if ever used - Schwartz testimony. I don't think he understood what he saw (if anything) and may have been mistranslated.

Then why cite Pipeman as a candidate for Liz Strie's date?

My point here is, not that Pipeman WAS Stride's date, but if Schwartz is to believed, Pipeman might have been that. I put no weight on his judgement of height at all.

Oh I see. You put no weight on his judgement of height. Well you would say that wouldn't you. It kicks your assumption that he may have possibly been Liz Stride's date into touch does it not?

For a man with a soubriquet of observer you (if I may say so) don't seem very observant. Judging height is really quite difficult - so as I have said previously - all such references to height must, IMHO, be regarded as subjective..

Well, obviously more observant than you. There's no way I would have considered Pipeman as Liz Stride's sole date for the night. Not when other witnesses are on record as stating that the man they saw with Liz Stride was 5 inches shorter than Pipeman.

It's all very well "thinking outside the box", and constructing a matrix of possibilities. The point is it helps to adhere as near as possible to the know facts.

[The Good Michael]

So you say - and may your interpretation bring you much joy and gladness.
l

Was that in response to me?

Mike

[Phil H]

So you say - and may your interpretation bring you much joy and gladness.

Doesn't work for me, sorry. I'll stick to my interpretation.

But you see, I am not seeking to assert any truth here - just using a different lens to look at Stride's murder. You may well be right, she was out with various men - though I think not. She may have been soliciting - but to me probably not that night. The more I look at this killing from verious angles, the less like Jack's work it seems (to me).

Edited to add: In my view, in our current state of knowledge of the case, it is probably best not to be too absolutist about anything. Hence my matrix of possibilities.

Phil

[The Good Michael]

My point here is, not that Pipeman WAS Stride's date, but if Schwartz is to believed, Pipeman might have been that. I put no weight on his judgement of height at all.

Phil,

If Schwartz' statement had even a grain of truth, surely he could judge one man (pipeman) as being taller than another. 5'11" could easily be off an inch or two, but unless he was lying, the comparison between the two men must be valid in that one was quite a bit taller than the other.


Mike

[Phil H]

I am not sure of - and you'll find I have rarely if ever used - Schwartz testimony. I don't think he understood what he saw (if anything) and may have been mistranslated.

My point here is, not that Pipeman WAS Stride's date, but if Schwartz is to believed, Pipeman might have been that. I put no weight on his judgement of height at all.

For a man with a soubriquet of observer you (if I may say so) don't seem very observant. Judging height is really quite difficult - so as I have said previously - all such references to height must, IMHO, be regarded as subjective.

One thing I'll give you. Liz doesn't appear to have been out with Joe Flemming that night.

Phil

[Observer]

More confused twaddle

For any of you who believe that Liz was on a date, would you care to speculate where her date was when she was killed. If you believe she was killed by her date that's fine, but if not, where was he?

I have suggested these options many times before:

a) he was pipe-smoking man (as seen by Schwartz) - either told by Stride to stand aside while she dealt with Kidney; or distancing himself from an unpleasant incident; or

b) he was in the Club and Stride was patiently waiting for him.

Just two ideas, but not, I think, impossible, unlikely or unreasonable.

Phil

You see, another example of flawed logic on display here.

Earlier in this thread ( in exchanges between yourself and I) you maintained that Liz Stride was in the company of one man and one man only on the night of her murder. The man in question you maintain was a date.

Now lets have a look at some dyed in the wool facts. Lets suppose that you are indeed correct in assuming that Liz Stride was in the company of only one man on the night of her death. All the witnesses Best, Gardener, Marshall, Brown, described the man's height as 5 feet 6inches, 5 feet 7 inches. Pipeman was described as being approx 5 feet 11 inches in height.

How can you consider Pipeman as being Liz Stride's date for the night when he was 5 or 6 inches taller than the man as seen by the other witnesses?

[Phil H]

I think what was shouted was "Lizzie!" (The word was misheard.)

Edited to add: IT may have been the man who didn't want Liz in the Club with him. If he was married for instance. Less questions.

I'm not trying to persuade you, Wickerman - how could I dare! I'm just stating what works for me - at least better than the usual confused twaddle of the night.

Phil

[Wickerman]

For any of you who believe that Liz was on a date, would you care to speculate where her date was when she was killed. If you believe she was killed by her date that's fine, but if not, where was he?

I have suggested these options many times before:

a) he was pipe-smoking man (as seen by Schwartz) - either told by Stride to stand aside while she dealt with Kidney; or distancing himself from an unpleasant incident; or

b) he was in the Club and Stride was patiently waiting for him.

Just two ideas, but not, I think, impossible, unlikely or unreasonable.

Phil

Not a) because Kidney came forward, so he was not BS-man. And if her date was Pipeman, why would BS-man shout 'Lipski' to him?
Then there's the story that he fled behind Schwartz, instead of charging at her attacker to help?

As for b), you might do better to garner a female opinion on that point.
How many 'dates' would accept being left outside an establishment which permitted women to enter, ...very likley none.
So while you think this might not be unreasonable, ...ask a woman.

[lynn cates]

time for chat

Hello CD. Thanks.

"If her date were in the club, wouldn't she have conveyed that to the B.S. man?"

When did she have time? According to the story, he had only just stopped to chat and then threw her down.

But perhaps she could have conveyed the information between the silent screams? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

protection

Hello Jon. Thanks.

". . . knowing what women are like for gossiping about the men-folk."

To the pith helmet, lad.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

De scarperis

Hello Phil. Thanks.

"If a married man, or one of better status than Liz, he may not have wanted to be involved and scarpered when things got violent."

Very well. But would a scarperer go about a block away and light a pipe?

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Phil. If Liz's "date" were in the club (a reasonable assumption) it would say something about either his politics or ethnicity?

If it were "Pipeman," surely he stood aside at a great length?

Cheers.
LC

If her date were in the club, wouldn't she have conveyed that to the B.S. man? That would seem to eliminate him being upset by her standing there since she now had a legitimate reason. You would also think that it would discourage any attack from him and if approached by Jack, you would again expect that that information would have discouraged him from continuing with his plans.

c.d.

[Cogidubnus]

Let's be explicit...personally I believe that Liz was an unfortunate...one of thousands of women forced to supplement her more legitimate income as a prostitute when the necessity arose, or alternatively, if you prefer, a woman supplementing her income when she felt she needed to escape by pissing it up, (I'm not being either over-critical or over-romantic either way...it's the way things were)...

The latter alternative is a pattern of behaviour possibly hinted at by Kidney when he suggested "It was drink that made her go away" etc...he couldn't of course admit he'd been supported by a prostitute's earnings, but that possibility is also there...

Again as a personal belief only, I'm more than willing to accept the possibility Liz wasn't actively soliciting the night she was killed... There are a lot of hints which might lead in that direction...as well as some in the other direction, (if the witnesses had the right woman and weren't just enjoying their fifteen minutes).

If you believe that Liz was an (albeit interrupted) victim of Jack the Ripper, then what she was actually doing, perhaps becomes irrelevant, in the light of what Jack thought she was doing (my nod to cd)...

But if you don't necessarily believe Liz was a JtR victim, then yes, what she was actually doing that night assumes rather more importance...obviously. What might she have been doing to get herself killed?

Just don't try to get me convinced that Kidney killed her...leaving aside Tom Westcott's excellent piece, (which I don't altogether buy, by the way), you want me to believe the guy would boldly turn up at the Inquest where he could be potentially be identified by god knows how many witnesses (not to mention, for all he knows, Schwartz and Pipeman?)...

All the best

Dave

[Phil H]

And yet the "dots" we link up come from them.

Phil