Throat-slitting and Stride

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

"But my problem is to reconstruct her last night. I'm sure you'll agree that, very different sequences will unfold, depending whether she were soliciting."

I disagree. I think it is a moot point. I think the question is would Jack take her for a prostitute and what would she do if Jack had money, cash in hand?

c.d.

[c.d.]

For any of you who believe that Liz was on a date, would you care to speculate where her date was when she was killed. If you believe she was killed by her date that's fine, but if not, where was he?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

need to know

Hello CD. Thanks.

Very well, but surely "Jack talk" is premature at this point? It assumes far too much.

I want to know:

1. How she spent her evening.

2. What she was doing on Berner.

3. Who was around at the time.

Cheers.
LC

[deadstrings1969]

Wow polite words even from those who don't agree with my thoughts.I must not be in America anymore. lol Thanks guys and gals I'm a baby at all this but it has be an interest for as long as I can remember. JTR really was a name choice that has stuck around.Though it was most likely a creation of the media. Ok the NSA is probably watching me now.Too much JTR interest for their liking. lol Thanks again for the positive responses. Probably the first I've received on any forum ever. LYA deadstrings

[Phil H]

For any of you who believe that Liz was on a date, would you care to speculate where her date was when she was killed. If you believe she was killed by her date that's fine, but if not, where was he?

I have suggested these options many times before:

a) he was pipe-smoking man (as seen by Schwartz) - either told by Stride to stand aside while she dealt with Kidney; or distancing himself from an unpleasant incident; or

b) he was in the Club and Stride was patiently waiting for him.

Just two ideas, but not, I think, impossible, unlikely or unreasonable.

Phil

[lynn cates]

options

Hello Phil. If Liz's "date" were in the club (a reasonable assumption) it would say something about either his politics or ethnicity?

If it were "Pipeman," surely he stood aside at a great length?

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

If Pipeman maybe he was uncertain as to what the outcome would be.

If a married man, or one of better status than Liz, he may not have wanted to be involved and scarpered when things got violent.

As to ethnicity - Liz was known to work for Jewish families and (according to one source) may have spoken some Yiddish. So I would be inclined to bet her date was indeed Jewish.

Phil

[Wickerman]

Apparently, no-one, not anyone at the lodging-house, not Charles Preston whom she asked for a loan of his clothes brush, not Eliza Tanner who had just paid her 6d, not Catherine Lane who chatted with Stride.
Poor Liz was so excited about this hypothetical date she mentioned nothing to no-one about it.

This in itself is highly unlikely, knowing what women are like for gossiping about the men-folk. The police questioned them all and if there had been any suggestion Liz had been on a date she would have told her friends, they would have told the police, and the police would have been looking for one missing male.

[Phil H]

And yet the "dots" we link up come from them.

Phil

[Cogidubnus]

Let's be explicit...personally I believe that Liz was an unfortunate...one of thousands of women forced to supplement her more legitimate income as a prostitute when the necessity arose, or alternatively, if you prefer, a woman supplementing her income when she felt she needed to escape by pissing it up, (I'm not being either over-critical or over-romantic either way...it's the way things were)...

The latter alternative is a pattern of behaviour possibly hinted at by Kidney when he suggested "It was drink that made her go away" etc...he couldn't of course admit he'd been supported by a prostitute's earnings, but that possibility is also there...

Again as a personal belief only, I'm more than willing to accept the possibility Liz wasn't actively soliciting the night she was killed... There are a lot of hints which might lead in that direction...as well as some in the other direction, (if the witnesses had the right woman and weren't just enjoying their fifteen minutes).

If you believe that Liz was an (albeit interrupted) victim of Jack the Ripper, then what she was actually doing, perhaps becomes irrelevant, in the light of what Jack thought she was doing (my nod to cd)...

But if you don't necessarily believe Liz was a JtR victim, then yes, what she was actually doing that night assumes rather more importance...obviously. What might she have been doing to get herself killed?

Just don't try to get me convinced that Kidney killed her...leaving aside Tom Westcott's excellent piece, (which I don't altogether buy, by the way), you want me to believe the guy would boldly turn up at the Inquest where he could be potentially be identified by god knows how many witnesses (not to mention, for all he knows, Schwartz and Pipeman?)...

All the best

Dave

[c.d.]

Hello Phil. If Liz's "date" were in the club (a reasonable assumption) it would say something about either his politics or ethnicity?

If it were "Pipeman," surely he stood aside at a great length?

Cheers.
LC

If her date were in the club, wouldn't she have conveyed that to the B.S. man? That would seem to eliminate him being upset by her standing there since she now had a legitimate reason. You would also think that it would discourage any attack from him and if approached by Jack, you would again expect that that information would have discouraged him from continuing with his plans.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

De scarperis

Hello Phil. Thanks.

"If a married man, or one of better status than Liz, he may not have wanted to be involved and scarpered when things got violent."

Very well. But would a scarperer go about a block away and light a pipe?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

protection

Hello Jon. Thanks.

". . . knowing what women are like for gossiping about the men-folk."

To the pith helmet, lad.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

time for chat

Hello CD. Thanks.

"If her date were in the club, wouldn't she have conveyed that to the B.S. man?"

When did she have time? According to the story, he had only just stopped to chat and then threw her down.

But perhaps she could have conveyed the information between the silent screams? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

For any of you who believe that Liz was on a date, would you care to speculate where her date was when she was killed. If you believe she was killed by her date that's fine, but if not, where was he?

I have suggested these options many times before:

a) he was pipe-smoking man (as seen by Schwartz) - either told by Stride to stand aside while she dealt with Kidney; or distancing himself from an unpleasant incident; or

b) he was in the Club and Stride was patiently waiting for him.

Just two ideas, but not, I think, impossible, unlikely or unreasonable.

Phil

Not a) because Kidney came forward, so he was not BS-man. And if her date was Pipeman, why would BS-man shout 'Lipski' to him?
Then there's the story that he fled behind Schwartz, instead of charging at her attacker to help?

As for b), you might do better to garner a female opinion on that point.
How many 'dates' would accept being left outside an establishment which permitted women to enter, ...very likley none.
So while you think this might not be unreasonable, ...ask a woman.