Throat-slitting and Stride

[Phil H]

I am not sure where to post this - without either disrupting discussions in a current thread or unearthing some old one.

It is often said that one of the reasons we must accept Stride as a Ripper-victim is that (notwithstanding the lack of mutilations) her throat was cut.

Re-reading "1888: London Murders in the Year of the Ripper" by Peter Stubley, I find that Lucy Clark (of George ST Portman Square) had her throat cut. OK she had been repeatedly hit over the head as well, but her killer(s) had slit her throat.

On the same night as Stride was killed, Sarah Brown had her throat cut by her husband in an acknowledge "domestic".

Now, my point is that these are just two examples, but evidently throat-cutting was not something reserved to "Jack", not unusual in Victorian London; happened in "domestic" murders; and could be done with "weapons" to hand.

So, why does a woman with her throat slit HAVE so insistently to be "Jack's" work"?

Unless you believe that Tabram, Mckenzie and the Pinchin St torso were also "Jack's" work, I find the - there could only have been one killer around in the area at that time - explanation, a weak one. There was one other "domestic" that very night - why not two?

Phil

[Damaso Marte]

How common was it for throat-cutting victims (in general) to have been cut on the ground versus standing?

[lynn cates]

"Here comes another one."

Hello Phil. I admire your testosterone level.

Hope you have a pith helmet--this has been asked before.

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

Probably by me!!!

[ukranianphil]

I am not sure of the statistics; reading the papers there were quite a few
throat cutters about.
My View is that, Stride was different and could not have been a ripper victim.
I think the press were too quick to put the two murders together that night.
It just dose not add up that he would kill someone, then cross over to miter square and kill another, then go back into whitechapel when there were 100's of police out looking as well as Vigilantes.
I think stride was a victim of a robbery not ripper but the press jumed
at the chance to link the two together. Especially to bring the jews back into
it; since it was outside a working mans club and the Graffito on the wall next to Eddowes apron implicated them, (although i believe the Graffito had nothing to do with the case)and also the Leather apron scare had died down.
If the stride murder had occured on another night, she would not have been
included as a ripper victim.

[andy1867]

I sort of favour the interrupted murder scenario if Stride is to be accepted
It was a very public place seemed a busy night
Jack gets interrupted his rage not satiated so continues to Mitre square
Regards
Andy

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Phil H, all.

Well obviously Stride doesn't HAVE to be a victim of 'JTR'. So let us observe the scenario and see what we might, how you say, devine.

Compare Stride's scenario to Eddowes.

Compare Stride's scenario to the domestic that same evening.

Which two are more similar? Exclude witness testimony for the time being.

I'm on the fence about Stride. If I recall correctly there were 5 more murders of women by slit throat in 88 than the previous year in the records. For a total of 16. 3 occuring on the same evening. With a potential serial killer running about. Around 10-11 on average for a few years before and after 88. Lost train of thought.

[ukranianphil]

These are the lists of attacks/ murders in 1888. It was taken from another forum but appart from a few discrepencies it is 99% accurate.

Annie Millwood- Attacked February 25,1888----------Outdoors--Did Not Die----------------------Knife Used--------------------------Perp Unknown
Ada Wilson------Attacked March 28, 1888------------Indoors---Did Not Die----------------------Knife Used--------------------------Perp Unknown
Eliza Gow-------Attacked April 2nd, 1888-------------Indoors--- Did Not Die----------------------Knife Used--------------------------James Brown, Military
Nalvinah Haynes--Attacked April 2nd, 1888------------Outdoors- Did Not Die----------------------By Fist/Blunt Object-----------------Perp Unknown
Emma Smith------Murdered April 3, 1888-------------Outdoors--Died As A Result Of The Assault--Blunt Object Thrust In Vaginal Area-- Perps Unknown
Georgina Green--Attacked May 5, 1888---------------Outdoors--Did Not Die----------------------Knife Used-------------------------No Information
Annie Patterson-Attacked June 26,1888--------------Indoors---Did Not Die----------------------Knife Used--------------------------Knew Perpetrator
Martha Tabram---Murdered August 7, 1888------------Indoors---Died At The Scene----------------Knife Used------------------------Undetermined/No
John Holland----Attacked August 8, 1888------------Outdoors--To Be Looked Into Further--------Knives Used------------------------Three Men
Elizabeth Bartlett-Murd. August 19, 1888-----------Indoors---Died At The Scene----------------Knife Used--------------------------Husband
Clara Fitzgerald- Att'd August 30,1888------------Indoors---Did Not Die------------------------Blunt Object---------------------------Husband
Mary Ann Nichols-Murd'd August 31,1888------------Outdoors--Died At The Scene----------------Knife------------------------------Perp Unknown
Unknown Woman Att'd A September 1, 1888---------Outdoors--Did Not Die----------------------Knife-------------------------------Perp Unknown
Unidentified Woman--Atta'd--Sept. 8,1888-----------Outdoors--Did Not Die---------------------Knife-------------------------------Blind Peddler,Spitalfields Market
Annie Chapman -Mur'd September 8, 1888---------Outdoors--Died At The Scene---------------Knife-------------------------------Perp Unknown
Unknown Woman Att'd B September 27, 1888--------Outdoors--Did Not Die----------------------Fist(s) Only-------------------------Perp Unknown
Elizabeth Stride-Mur'd September 29, 1888------- Outdoors--Died At The Scene----------------Knife---------------------------------Perp unknown
Sarah Brown---Murdered Sept. 29, 1888----------Indoors---Died At Scene--------------------Knife-------------------------------Husband, John Brown
Catherine Eddowes-Mur'd September 30, 1888--------Outdoors--Died At The Scene----------------Knife-----------------------------Perp Unknown
Mary Kelly-Murdered November 9, 1888----------Indoors---Died At the Scene----------------Knife-----------------------------------Perp Unknown
Rose Mylett-Murdered December 20,1888----------Outdoors--Died At The Scene----------------Strangled/Garrotted------------------Perp Unknown

[Fleetwood Mac]

I am not sure where to post this - without either disrupting discussions in a current thread or unearthing some old one.

It is often said that one of the reasons we must accept Stride as a Ripper-victim is that (notwithstanding the lack of mutilations) her throat was cut.

Re-reading "1888: London Murders in the Year of the Ripper" by Peter Stubley, I find that Lucy Clark (of George ST Portman Square) had her throat cut. OK she had been repeatedly hit over the head as well, but her killer(s) had slit her throat.

On the same night as Stride was killed, Sarah Brown had her throat cut by her husband in an acknowledge "domestic".

Now, my point is that these are just two examples, but evidently throat-cutting was not something reserved to "Jack", not unusual in Victorian London; happened in "domestic" murders; and could be done with "weapons" to hand.

So, why does a woman with her throat slit HAVE so insistently to be "Jack's" work"?

Unless you believe that Tabram, Mckenzie and the Pinchin St torso were also "Jack's" work, I find the - there could only have been one killer around in the area at that time - explanation, a weak one. There was one other "domestic" that very night - why not two?

Phil

The obvious flaw is that Stride had her throat cut while lying down - head turned away from him and blood flowing away from him. Also in an area frequented by prostitutes in a dark spot.

Could be wrong here, but I don't think there were too many of these types of murders knocking about.

Again, could be wrong, but Coles seems to be the last type of these murders, and Tommy Cutbush was sent to Britain's detention centre for the criminally insane not too long after this; not sure where Kosminski fits into this.

How many murderers were knocking about lying prostitutes down and cutting their throats for some other purpose - my guess is 1.

[Phil H]

How many murderers were knocking about lying prostitutes down and cutting their throats for some other purpose - my guess is 1.

You may well be right.

But there is a small chance we are seeing the evidence through the wrong lens - so your guess could be wrong.

Phil

[Fleetwood Mac]

How many murderers were knocking about lying prostitutes down and cutting their throats for some other purpose - my guess is 1.

You may well be right.

But there is a small chance we are seeing the evidence through the wrong lens - so your guess could be wrong.

Phil

Can you put some meat on the bones of this, because I have absolutely no idea what you mean.

[Phil H]

Well, an assumption that the murder was the work of "Jack" might have led to the evidence (especially the description of the body) being perceived in a certain way: i.e. as "Jack's" work.

Dead bodies do, of course, fall to the floor quite naturally.

I recognise that I am quibbling, but I DO believe that the Stride murder might be by another hand.

Review the Eddowes murder without Stride and several things fall into place, for me at least.

Hope that helps,

Phil

[Fleetwood Mac]

Well, an assumption that the murder was the work of "Jack" might have led to the evidence (especially the description of the body) being perceived in a certain way: i.e. as "Jack's" work.

Dead bodies do, of course, fall to the floor quite naturally.

I recognise that I am quibbling, but I DO believe that the Stride murder might be by another hand.

Review the Eddowes murder without Stride and several things fall into place, for me at least.

Hope that helps,

Phil

Except it seems that Jack liked to lie them down and cut their throats before getting down to business. Stride was on the floor when she had her throat cut.

If it was your run-of-the-mill murder, then why not carry it out like a run-of-the-mill murder?

Doesn't wash with me. Seems Stride was about to get cut up.

[c.d.]

I think if the details of the incidents listed by UkrainianPhil were made known, we would see discernible motives such as robbery, domestic violence etc. Were any of those listed (other than the ones we are familiar with) prostitutes who had their throat cut? I would be willing to guess that a number of those women who were knifed had been slapped around as well and that arguments had been heard.

With Liz, we have no motive that we know of. No argument was heard (post B.S. man) and she wasn't slapped around. That would appear to differentiate her from the others.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

witnesses

Hello Mac.

"The obvious flaw is that Stride had her throat cut while lying down. . ."

Well, ALMOST lying down.

"Also in an area frequented by prostitutes in a dark spot."

Frequented by prostitutes? Where on earth did you get this? Surely not from the IWMEC witnesses?

Cheers.
LC