Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[lynn cates]

after the fact

Hello Michael. Thanks.

Could his reference to "Jews" be AFTER the fact?

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Lynn,

By 'after the fact' I assume you mean that Schwartz made it up? I think Schwartz was scared of the man. If Schwartz was the 'theater type', in those days it may have have been equivalent to effete. So, sure Schwartz could have added it to justify being scared enough not to intervene in (to his mind) and assault on a woman. I wonder if Schwartz thought the couple Jewish at first, and then a sneering 'Lipski' made the comment even more terrifying. I do believe Schwartz saw the man. I also think his fear is connected to his not coming to the inquest. I don't think he was afraid that BS man would kill him. I think he was afraid because, yet another woman was murdered (JTR or not) and that his cowardly inaction might have gotten him at the very least threatened by folks outside the inquest. That threat may have been so strong in his mind and real to the police, that he was allowed not to come. What purpose would it have served anyway as he gave a statement already? Two murders on the same night, both with seemingly strong Jewish connections(Berner Club, GSG, Jewish witnesses), plus a poor command of English. Why risk the guy's life by having him appear?

Mike

[Hunter]

Very astute, Michael.

I would add the coroner's reserve and concern as well. The underlying peripheral issues that can be a major influence are lost on most. And some's often biased predilection are a further impediment to at least try and understand events as they unfold.

Recent events and their results forced this otherwise intrepid coroner and recalcitrant police to work together for a common interest.

[The Good Michael]

Hunter,

Thanks. I don't know about astute. I do know about common sense. It seems that suspect chasers are quite literal when they dismiss witnesses. A guy like Schwartz, for example, if he didn't appear, his statement must have been irrelevant. Easy enough to say because we don't know otherwise and why not get rid of excess witnesses if it helps one's case. Obviously, there are other possibilities and I look for them because I don't have a suspect. I want a solid foundation of logic first, and then maybe I'll get around to one. You can see this literal mentality is in the Crossmere threads. Again, looking for exact words means you don't have to think very hard.

Mike

[DVV]

Once he had made his point..."that will teach you to mouth off to me, bitch"...he had no reason to stick around.
c.d.

Hi CD,

I get your point. No reason to stick around. Except if BSM was JtR - a drunken JtR, that is.
He may have left the scene or not, and if he left, I believe he came back quickly to kill, already knowing he would not mutilate her - in case Schwartz would bump into a bobby.
Alcohol would have exacerbated his urge to kill.
Of course, that's just the way I (try to) see what happened.
The only thing I'm pretty sure of is that the killer was already gone when Diemshitz arrived.

[Harry D]

What if it was Schwartz who killed Stride!?

We know some serial killers have been known to insert themselves into the investigation. Schwartz could've invented the whole BS (no pun intended?) story in order to throw off the police.

Perhaps Schwartz knew more English than he let on, but not enough to properly articulate his thoughts with the GSG!?

[lynn cates]

after the fact

Hello Michael. Thanks.

"By 'after the fact' I assume you mean that Schwartz made it up?"

I was referring to Spooner and his calling the men he saw "Jews."

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Hello Michael. Thanks.

"By 'after the fact' I assume you mean that Schwartz made it up?"

I was referring to Spooner and his calling the men he saw "Jews."

I don't know, Lynn. It may have just been Spooner's thing to call it as he saw it regardless of political correctness. To be honest, I don't trust Spooner's reliability. Call it a hunch. I think he was as drunk as a skunk that night.

Mike

[RockySullivan]

Hi CD,

I get your point. No reason to stick around. Except if BSM was JtR - a drunken JtR, that is.
He may have left the scene or not, and if he left, I believe he came back quickly to kill, already knowing he would not mutilate her - in case Schwartz would bump into a bobby.
Alcohol would have exacerbated his urge to kill.
Of course, that's just the way I (try to) see what happened.
The only thing I'm pretty sure of is that the killer was already gone when Diemshitz arrived.

Unless he was hiding in the yard til diemshitz went inside...

[lynn cates]

recognition

Hello Michael. Thanks.

"It may have just been Spooner's thing to call it as he saw it regardless of political correctness."

Indeed. But the point was that the word was used to show that Spooner recognised then racially. I was/am not convinced.

"To be honest, I don't trust Spooner's reliability."

Nor yet I.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

BS Man exists in the statement of Israel Schwartz....and that's all that can be said about him after all this time.

Israel Schwartz...the immigrant Jew who claimed at 12:45 to be checking to see if his wife had moved over the previous 12 hours, a move that likely consisted of a suitcase or 2. The immigrant Jew who just happened to be passing a club for Immigrant Jews a while after a large meeting was held. The immigrant Jew who we have no address for before Brick Lane. The Immigrant Jew that may have had a relationship of some kind with Woolf Wess of the Arbeter Fraint going back to Paris a few years earlier. The immigrant Jew who may have used Wess to translate for him.

And most importantly. the Immigrant Jew who was not called to testify at the Stride Inquest. He is not indicated anywhere in the transcripts, no reference to his story is made, and no record that his story was even submitted for consideration exists. There is no record of his story being suppressed.

Again, an immigrant Jew who claimed implausibly that he had doubts whether his wife could move a few meager belongings a few streets over in 12 hours claims he saw a Gentile, based on his description of the event, assault Liz Stride within 1 minute of the earliest time she was cut...making the culprit BSM the last person seen with Stride alive, and therefore the primary suspect.

It seems to me that this is, and has always been, a false statement intended to cast suspicion off the anarchist Jews on the property and on to a gentile, who is off the property. I believe its infinitely more probable that he attended the club that night than it is he saw what he claimed, as he claimed it happened.

However, he may have seen something inside the gates as he left for the night via the side door, perhaps the back of a surly man accosting a woman who had been in the area for sometime previously in a corner behind the open gate, a man poking the woman in the chest..causing slight bruising, as she had her back to the wall. Then he could have been shooed off by the man, gone around behind him and out the gate before the woman pushed the surly man back and attempted to leave the same way Schwartz did. Her scarf was grabbed, she was pulled back off balance, her position twisted as the scarf was twisted, and a knife was run across her throat as he dropped her. She falls on her side and bleeds out...knees drawing into her body.

I have suspicions that his statement was to deflect suspicions from a club that was already considered an anarchists club...not just a Socialist one.

If I am wrong, then BSM is the primary suspect, and he matches none of the "Suspects" profiles that most feel were likely Jack.

Cheers

[RockySullivan]

That's an interesting theory it suggests lipski & the GSG are red herrings.

[Wickerman]

That's an interesting theory it suggests lipski & the GSG are red herrings.

However, we are then left unable to explain Insp. Swanson's apparent belief in the reliability of Schwartz's statement as far out as 19th Oct.

[lynn cates]

credo in . . .

Hello Jon. Of course, SOME investigators believe it 126 years out.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Of course, SOME investigators believe it 126 years out.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.

Not forgetting Insp. Abberline's confirmation of this apparent importance in a report dated 1st Nov.

The conundrum does not have an obvious solution.