Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[Michael W Richards]

However, we are then left unable to explain Insp. Swanson's apparent belief in the reliability of Schwartz's statement as far out as 19th Oct.

Then we can just add it those other situations created by investigators comments that defy explanation Jon...like why Ostrog and Druitt were named as Primary Suspects by Macnaughten, and why Tumblety should be considered a suspect at all, why someone who later poisons his wives for material gain was actually the Ripper earlier in his career, and the claims that they institutionalized the Ripper. And that H Wentworth Bellsmith should be considered as a suspect.

There are ample examples of unwarranted claims made by senior officials, most of who were trained to use misdirection and falsehoods to maintain secrecy within the intelligence gathering community.

The sightings of Liz Stride that are reliable end at 12:35am, both the sightings of Liz Stride at 12:45 are questionable at best, Louis Diemshitz arrival time is put into great question by 3 witnesses and the fact that Fanny Mortimer stood at her door between 12:55 and 1am and saw or heard nothing of him or his cart and horse, and there is no doubt that a club full of immigrant Jews would have panicked when they learned of the dead woman in their passageway.

I think my suggestion that Israel was likely an inserted red herring on behalf of the club is a sound one. It would explain almost everything except the supportive remarks by Swanson later that month. But as I said, we can be sure that much of what we are told by investigators is at best just their opinion, and at worst, misdirection.

Cheers Jon

[lynn cates]

interview

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Yes. But, of course, that was based on his personal interview with Schwartz.

I presume that, neither he nor Swanson, had any personal follow up on the ground afterwards?


Apparently some at Leman had and so they tended towards incredulity.

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Israel Schwartz...the immigrant Jew who claimed at 12:45 to be checking to see if his wife had moved over the previous 12 hours, a move that likely consisted of a suitcase or 2. The immigrant Jew who just happened to be passing a club for Immigrant Jews a while after a large meeting was held. The immigrant Jew who we have no address for before Brick Lane. The Immigrant Jew that may have had a relationship of some kind with Woolf Wess of the Arbeter Fraint going back to Paris a few years earlier. The immigrant Jew who may have used Wess to translate for him.

And most importantly. the Immigrant Jew who was not called to testify at the Stride Inquest. He is not indicated anywhere in the transcripts, no reference to his story is made, and no record that his story was even submitted for consideration exists. There is no record of his story being suppressed.

Well, there was no attempt to hide the fact that Schwartz had connections to others at the club. Nothing I've read denies the possibility. And of course, it is likely that young newcomers to London with common interests would seek each other out. It's what foreigners do everywhere/ Your harping on his being an immigrant Jew means nothing.

As for the inquest: There is no record that the coroner did not read Schwartz' statement.

Mike

[harry]

If Schwartz can be believed,and I do believe him,then one can believe in the second male,the one on the corner.He too had opportunity.His presence,to some degree,lessens the probability that only BS could be responsible.What cannot be denied is that the second man,the one on the corner,can more easily be believed to have been the male seen by Brown in the company of a woman,probably Stride,a short distance from the murder scene,and only a short time before her murder must have occurred.

[The Good Michael]

If Schwartz can be believed,and I do believe him,then one can believe in the second male,the one on the corner.He too had opportunity.His presence,to some degree,lessens the probability that only BS could be responsible.What cannot be denied is that the second man,the one on the corner,can more easily be believed to have been the male seen by Brown in the company of a woman,probably Stride,a short distance from the murder scene,and only a short time before her murder must have occurred.

I believe Schwartz because he sounds like a coward who allowed a woman to be assaulted. He was probably forced to come forward by friends, and I'm sure he absolutely was afraid of attending any inquest. This was no hero, nor an agent. He was a wimp.

Mike

[Batman]

And most importantly. the Immigrant Jew who was not called to testify at the Stride Inquest. He is not indicated anywhere in the transcripts, no reference to his story is made, and no record that his story was even submitted for consideration exists. There is no record of his story being suppressed.

There is however lots of evidence from the police files and the home office that they believed him. Mrs. Mortimer wasn't asked to give evidence either.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=8520

It seems to me that this is, and has always been, a false statement intended to cast suspicion off the anarchist Jews on the property and on to a gentile, who is off the property.

The term Lipski wasn't understood initially and the police went looking for people with surnames of Lipski in the area (which of which there were several) before concluding it was a anti-semitic slur.

I have suspicions that his statement was to deflect suspicions from a club that was already considered an anarchists club...not just a Socialist one.

The club was checked intensively by the police at the time. It would require a degree of conspiracy between the members to keep things like this quiet.

If I am wrong, then BSM is the primary suspect, and he matches none of the "Suspects" profiles that most feel were likely Jack.

I think the description is quite the same as many others. Age about 30 ht, 5 ft 5 in. comp. fair hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, dress, dark jacket & trousers black cap with peak.

Compare that with Lawende... ""of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak"."

Differences of 4" and a neckerchief.

Home Office document from around July 1889 for Lawende reads: "Age 30 to 35. Height 5ft. 7in., with brown hair and big moustache, dressed respectably. Wore a pea jacket, muffler and a cloth cap with a peak of the same material.

[lynn cates]

fleeing

Hello Harry.

"His presence, to some degree, lessens the probability that only BS could be responsible."

Should one assume that one flees a scene of battery only to return and commit murder? And should one further assume that the decedent was in suspended animation whilst this occurred?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

entrapment

Hello Batman.

"The club was checked intensively by the police at the time."

yes indeed. And one of them claimed he was nearly entrapped by a policeman. Whether the club member spoke truly or not, it DOES indicate why they might feel nervous.

"It would require a degree of conspiracy between the members to keep things like this quiet."

"Conspiracy" is a bit strong. What it would take is two or three clubmen to hastily concoct a story.

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

"It would require a degree of conspiracy between the members to keep things like this quiet."

"Conspiracy" is a bit strong. What it would take is two or three clubmen to hastily concoct a story.

I don't know, Lynn. I think 'conspiracy' is the perfect word for what is being implied here. If we have even one person telling another to lie, we have some dark purpose for that presumably. That equals conspiracy in my book. Unless....why else would there be a story created?

Mike

[lynn cates]

tenebrae

Hello Michael. Thanks.

Very well, if you like cloak and dagger terminology. . .

Dark purpose? Umm, did you read what went on during the investigation of the club members? Don't forget--these lads and lasses had survived the Jewish pogroms. Hence, survival may not be all that dark.

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

.

Very well, if you like cloak and dagger terminology. . .

Oh no, I don't like it. It fits here, however, because that is what is at the heart of the belief of a Schwartz/Berner Street fabrication, and it isn't where it stops either. If it were just a couple of guys covering each other, because they'd committed a crime and didn't want to go back to the pen (melodramatic, I know), I'd say it was pretty normal.

Mike

[Batman]

The reason for speculating a Jewish conspiracy could be because the investigators in their mémoires speculated that door to door searches of any man who could do things undisturbed after the Kelly murder revealed that the Jews where protecting one of their own. These remarks caused a heated debate in the papers.

[lynn cates]

waste

Hello Michael. Thanks.

I think it was 2 or 3 of the upper echelon at the club. They devised a quick fix to the problem. Lads at Leman saw through it.

No big deal; merely a useless waste of time and thinking power.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Yiddish

Hello Batman. Thanks.

You are not referring to Swanson and his recollection of Sir Robert?

You want Yiddish? OY GEVALT!!!!

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

I believe Schwartz because he sounds like a coward who allowed a woman to be assaulted. He was probably forced to come forward by friends, and I'm sure he absolutely was afraid of attending any inquest. This was no hero, nor an agent. He was a wimp.

Mike

I pretty much agree with this.
Schwartz sounds to me like someone who just didn't want to get involved, either at the time or after. and only admitted to what he saw because the police found him. He certainly does not seem like the type to lie to the police, or get involved in some conspiracy with the club. this is someone new to the country and the last thing he would want to do is get in legal trouble with his new countries police.