Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[c.d.]

Hello Richard.

"My opinion is Stride was killed because she was close enough to identify him, and if the killer, he was not worried about possible arrest over common assault."

But identify him as what?

Cheers.
LC

Exactly. She would have to identify him as the man who pushed her to the ground. Hardly a hanging offense.

c.d.

[c.d.]

I've been thinking about the cachous. If they survived Liz being pushed to the ground, they were resilient little devils. Think about it. Liz is pushed to the ground by the B.S. man. The cachous are wrapped in tissue paper held between her thumb and forefinger. The natural inclination is to try to use your hands to break your fall. Hard to believe that they wouldn't have been scattered. I suppose it is possible that she might have fallen on her side or her backside. But here is the thing. Again, the natural inclination is to use your hands to push yourself up to a standing position.The cachous would have had to withstand that as well. Does that really seem likely?

It would seem that we are left with several choices:

1. Liz did not have the cachous in her hand when she fell;

2. She did have the cachous in her hand and they somehow survived the fall and her attempts to get up as well;

3. She realized that she was about to die at the hands of the B.S. man and wanted to go through the Pearly Gates with fresh breath so she took them out immediately after her fall;

4. She took them out after the B.S. man had left the scene;

5. None of the above.

Any thoughts?

c.d.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo c.d.

Well, one simple explanation is she wasn't pushed down. Didn't Polly have her bonnet in her hand or it was laying in such a way to suggest that? Too much work and sickness to recall properly.

[drstrange169]

Hello c.d.,

Given the postmotem makes no mention of bruising from a fall, I'm inclined to say she never fell. Which in turn raises a question mark over Schwartz's story as we have it.

[Investigator]

Hello All,
Sorry for not comming in sooner, been away for a few days.
To resume the question asked on another thread.
Wik.
We will have no real way of knowing why she maintained a hold on the cachues. However, what I surmise is that the grip on an object is a voluntary action and usually requires volition to release that hold. In the surprise of falling, I would believe that there was neither the cognition nor the time to make a response. By then of course it was over. I seem to remember my wife falling over a curb holding an umbrella – it was still in her hand trying to get up.

On the matter of BS man being her killer, I agree I don’t think he was and I also suspect she did end on the ground twice. I am also sure that the Schwartz’s story is correct in that BS man did push her so that she fell outside the gates of Dutfields yard. Phillips’s post mortem verifies she had “pressure” marks on her upper chest – (see inquest). The second time she didn’t get up.

Elisabeth also was found to have had an old fracture at the distal part of the tibia & fibula that had not joined well. Thise together with cobble stones (see Hutchinson’s photo) could have meant a slight push would result in a fall– she didn’t scream loudly, because she blamed herself both for provoking BS man and for slipping on the cobbles. It might also be the case that BS man called out “lipsky”, not to Schwartz, nor to Pipeman but to Elisabeth. Some may find that hard to swallow!!!
I think that the evidence, such as it is, certainly places this between 12.42 and 12.47.

Let me summarise my original reasoning .
(1) PC Lamb, “… shortly before one o'clock, ..when two men came running towards me…” Lamb was informed of the murder shortly before 01.00(2)”… the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be (brought) from Commercial-road.
It took 15 minutes to find police.
(3) Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman; ten minutes later they had found a pair of peace-keepers...”
It took 10 minutes to find police
Ergo = The search by club members began 10 -15 minutes before finding police.
If Lambs’ “shortly before one o'clock,” is to mean 12.57, then search began between 12.42 - 12.47.
(4) Isaac Kozebrodsky "I came into the club … at half-past twelve o'clock. Shortly after I came in Diemschitz asked me to come out into the yard…” - Interpret “shortly after” - 10 Minutes? 30 minutes?
If 10 minutes, Diemshiz was in Dutfields yard with Kozabrodsky at 12.40
It cannot possibly be 30 minutes, because Lamb had been informed “shortly before 01.00 and there is a confession by Wess that there was a 10 – 15 minute delay in finding police.
Ergo; Diemshitz was at the murder site before 12:47 and possibly 12.42.
Maybe I'll rest it there for awhile to let the implications of this takes hold.
Cheers D.G.

[Phil H]

I am always dubious of such EXACT timings in relation to 1888.

Of course, if your argument is simply that all the events need bringing forward by 20 minutes or so - based on Diemshitz arrival - OK.

I agree your point on the cachous. Such things are not predictable in my experience.

Phil

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
In response to Lynn, and CD,
To Clarify..what I was suggesting is.. if BS was not the Ripper, even if he had roughed her up, and knew he could be identified, he would have had no need to kill her, physical assault on unfortunates was common.
But if he was the Ripper, knowing he could be identified by the remaining person [ Stride..the other two had fled] he would have silenced her to prevent him possibly being apprehended and identified..his neck was at stake.
I am sorry if my initially post was somewhat confusing.
Regards Richard.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Investigator.

What about Fanny and Goldstein?

[Phil H]

What about Fanny and Goldstein?

Are they a US double-act?

Maybe they were "doing a music hall turn" at the IWMC.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo PhilH

What about Fanny and Goldstein?

Are they a US double-act?

Maybe they were "doing a music hall turn" at the IWMC.

It's good to see you have a sense of humour. I meant, if Stride was discovered that early and there were all these people running about how would Goldstein and Fanny have missed it?

[Phil H]

Oh, I have a sense of humour, Digalittledeeperwatson.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Heh heh.

Oh, I have a sense of humour, Digalittledeeperwatson.

I know you do Phil H. All the copycat talk was a dead giveaway.

[Phil H]

Ah, shame you have no discernment. That was serious.

Phil

[Cogidubnus]

The problem of course is that there are two separate accounts surviving of the Schwartz story, the one related second-hand in Swanson's report, the other in The Star dated 1st October (a source which Stewart has quite rightly placed a "Health Warning" upon, elsewhere).

We do not, alas have Schwartz's original statement, and, therefore don't know the exact wording of what he said, or exactly how much Swanson has paraphrased. We can only try to deduce that from the manner in which Swanson comments upon it. Swanson is clearly of the view that BS Man may be the killer but it is by no means certain...and that's fair enough...Swanson is clearly a good copper keeping an open mind.

However, I don't think there's so much evidence still floating around that we can afford necessarily to selectively discard parts of the Star report, although again we must obviously treat it with some caution.

He walked on behind him, and presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alley way where the body was afterwards found. The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her. The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage, but, feeling rather timid of getting mixed up in quarrels, he crossed to the other side of the street. Before he had gone many yards, however, he heard the sound of a quarrel, and turned back to learn what was the matter, but just as he stepped from the kerb a second man came out of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forward as if to attack the intruder. The Hungarian states positively that he saw a knife in this second man's hand, but he waited to see no more. He fled incontinently, to his new lodgings.

Now, leaving aside, just for a moment the mention of the dagger, (which could actually be true, or could be as elsewhere demonstrated, a translational glitch for pipe), we do have a statement which suggests that the victim was pushed into the passageway. Don't forget the feet of the body were only a couple of yards in, so it wouldn't have to be that much of a shove...

Now those cachous...well as someone above pointed out, if a fall is sudden enough they may be grasped out of reflex...Cadaveric spasm has also been raised elsewhere...

So I'm afraid I can't rule BS man out as easily as some folk...

With regard to the earlier finding scenario, Mrs Mortimer's evidence is corroborated by Goldstein...neither of them heard anything kicking off before about 1am...

And to that extent they're backed up by Brown who was fetching his supper close to 1245 and didn't hear anything kicking off in the street until about 1am...

PC Lamb places his own arrival roughly 10 minutes before the Doctor, which in turn is noted as 1.16am...I've read the Arbeiter Fraint account of the time it allegedly took to find a copper and can't say I'm that impressed as it appears to be very much written as propaganda.

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

conclusion

Hello Harry.

"Why would BS kill Stride? A preplanned killing, or a sudden impulse?"

Well, if Israel told the truth, it looks like impulse.

"Why let her recover from a helpless position on the ground before drawing and using the knife?"

Quite.

"If pipeman and Schwartz were both leaving the scene, there was no reason to lure her into the yard,if BS merely wanted to cut her throat."

Right again.

"A couple of seconds out there on the pavement and he could have left without hindrance."

Precisely. But the time is near her TOD.

Shall you conclude or shall I?

Cheers.
LC