Why No Stride Mutilations ?

[c.d.]

Hello Sunny,

Let's assume that Stride was killed by a very angry, pissed off B.S. Man and what Schwartz saw was a vicious attack culminating in her death. It would seem that he was so angry that he threatens Schwartz and doesn't give a rats ass that he has been seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man but goes on to kill her anyway. Do you think it is at all strange or out of the ordinary that no one hears any argument or raised voices after Schwartz bolts the scene? Is it at all strange or out of the ordinary that she is not slapped around (no evidence of blows to the face)? Is it at all strange or out of the ordinary that there is only a single cut to the throat and no cuts at all to rest of the body? Is it at all strange or out of the ordinary that her clothes are not torn with all that went on? Is it at all strange or out of the ordinary that she managed to hold on to the cachous with all this manhandling?

Or do you think all of the above are consistent with an attack by a man so angry that he cares not that he has been seen?

c.d.

[Sunny Delight]

Ok. She was turned around and pushed. But we have no idea of the amount of force used or the actual intent behind it. It is certainly conceivable that Stride simply tried to pull away and fell. We don't know. Either way turning someone around and pushing them is hardly a violent assault.

c.d.

Schwartz does not say pushed. He said she was thrown to the ground. Now it could well be that he misinterpreted what he saw and indeed Stride was either pulling away or even slipped. However Schwartz used the word thrown. Trying to throw someone to the ground is not easy and would take a fair degree of force. Not excessive force I admit but certainly a fair degree. You keep using the word 'pushing' which is different to 'throwing'. Schwartz to my mind describes an assault.

[Sunny Delight]

Hello Sunny,

Let's assume that Stride was killed by a very angry, pissed off B.S. Man and what Schwartz saw was a vicious attack culminating in her death. It would seem that he was so angry that he threatens Schwartz and doesn't give a rats ass that he has been seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man but goes on to kill her anyway. Do you think it is at all strange or out of the ordinary that no one hears any argument or raised voices after Schwartz bolts the scene? Is it at all strange or out of the ordinary that she is not slapped around (no evidence of blows to the face)? Is it at all strange or out of the ordinary that there is only a single cut to the throat and no cuts at all to rest of the body? Is it at all strange or out of the ordinary that her clothes are not torn with all that went on? Is it at all strange or out of the ordinary that she managed to hold on to the cachous with all this manhandling?

Or do you think all of the above are consistent with an attack by a man so angry that he cares not that he has been seen?

c.d.

Well again you use terminology such as 'angry' and 'pissed off' which elicits a view of a man wildly out of control. I don't see it that way. I think he was controlled and focused. He had a desire and was determined to meet that desire. No I actually don't see much strange in much of what you mention. If as I believe Schwartz witnessed the beginning of the attack leading to Stride's death and after throwing Stride to the ground B.S man grabbed her scarf from behind pulling it tight then things make perfect sense.

[c.d.]

Schwartz does not say pushed. He said she was thrown to the ground. Now it could well be that he misinterpreted what he saw and indeed Stride was either pulling away or even slipped. However Schwartz used the word thrown. Trying to throw someone to the ground is not easy and would take a fair degree of force. Not excessive force I admit but certainly a fair degree. You keep using the word 'pushing' which is different to 'throwing'. Schwartz to my mind describes an assault.

Schwartz did not say pushed he did say thrown so I am in error. Although I don't see a huge distinction between the two words thrown does seem to be the stronger of the two. But of course whatever word he used was a translation. We also have no idea of the B.S. man's intent. He might have thrown her a little harder than he intended since he apparently had been drinking. We also don't know the role Stride played in all this.

Yes, it was an assault. It also would have been an assault if he had simply walked by and pinched her butt so we need to be careful with that word as it is very loaded.

Even though it was an assault I can't imagine if the B.S. man had walked away that Stride would have run to police headquarters demanding to speak to Abberline telling him she had been thrown to the ground while being out on the street late at night by herself. I also can't imagine Abberline responding " well dammit, that tears it!. No woman in Whitechapel is going to be thrown to the ground on my watch. Drop all other investigations. We have to catch this guy."

c.d.

[Sunny Delight]

Schwartz did not say pushed he did say thrown so I am in error. Although I don't see a huge distinction between the two words thrown does seem to be the stronger of the two. But of course whatever word he used was a translation. We also have no idea of the B.S. man's intent. He might have thrown her a little harder than he intended since he apparently had been drinking. We also don't know the role Stride played in all this.

Yes, it was an assault. It also would have been an assault if he had simply walked by and pinched her butt so we need to be careful with that word as it is very loaded.

Even though it was an assault I can't imagine if the B.S. man had walked away that Stride would have run to police headquarters demanding to speak to Abberline telling him she had been thrown to the ground while being out on the street late at night by herself. I also can't imagine Abberline responding " well dammit, that tears it!. No woman in Whitechapel is going to be thrown to the ground on my watch. Drop all other investigations. We have to catch this guy."

c.d.

Throwing someone to the floor is an aggressive act. Pushing is less aggressive. I agree we don't know B.S man's motive or intent, we can only go on what Schwartz said he witnessed. His description is seemingly that of an assault. It is a loaded word I agree- it may have been a struggle although again what Schwartz describes is fairly one sided.

Indeed, I dare say assaults like this were commonplace. Abberline I am quite sure would have been totally disinterested in what appears on the surface to have been common assault. What changes things is that within 15 minutes of this assault taking place Elizabeth Stride is found dead at the same spot with her throat cut. Cut in an identical manner to other Ripper victims. We can't rule out that with a 15 minute lag Stride didn't meet someone else. In my view it is unlikely. In my opinion the Ripper that night was seen in the vicinity of his crimes twice- once at Berner Street and once at the entrance to Church Passage.

I was however reading about the Yorkshire Ripper. It was interesting. One of his victims was seen in Leeds City centre banging on the roof of a car and shouting expletives at the driver. On the face of it had someone seen this they would have assumed when she was found dead it was connected. It wasn't. Peter Sutcliffe was 100 yards away watching and as the woman began walking away he pulled his car up, propositioned and she got in- leading to her death. So of course 15 minutes is enough time for JTR if he was lurking to strike. So we have to be open to the possibility. I wouldn't subscribe to the view that is what happened but I wouldn't rule it out either.

[JeffHamm]

While I agree that c.d. raises some possibilities that warrant consideration, I'm of the view that we have to always keep in mind that after Schwartz leaves the scene we enter a void of information. We do not know what events transpire between B.S. and Stride from that point onwards. I accept that we can speculate on things, but in the end, we have to be careful not to presume our speculations are what actually happened.

What I mean is, let's for a moment consider the scenario where B.S. kills Stride (whether or not he's JtR is immaterial right now). Schwartz sees Stride go to ground, apparently from being thrown by B.S., and she yells out three times, if not very loudly. After that, Schwartz leaves the scene and he doesn't say he saw her get up. That doesn't mean that B.S. must have dragged her into the ally at that point, she may very well have got back up to her feet, and some amount of time can pass, probably involving words of a not so friendly nature. Given Stride's location, I think it reasonable to assume she is aware of the entrance to the club down the alley, and so it is possible at some point she then decides to disengage from B.S. and heads to the club door to enter there to seek refuge as she knows there are people in the club due to the singing. Given the doctor's interpretation that he scarf was grabbed and pulled, when Stride heads towards the door, and so is now in the alley (and maybe at that point she's retrieved her cachous from where ever she normally kept them). B.S., at that point, even angrier now that she's dismissed him, grabs her scarf, surprising her, she goes down, and he cuts her throat.

In other words, there is nothing in the evidence that requires that B.S. gets Stride into the alley immediately after she's gone to the ground as per Schwartz (and the killed by another hypothesis requires that there be some time between those events). We just don't know what transpired, and while it may seem odd to suggest she stuck around and argued with B.S. after that initial throwing to the ground, given she doesn't yell very loudly, there's nothing to suggest she was terrified either (so really, nothing to suggest she would necessarily flee in any sort of panic).

I do consider it possible that B.S. leaves and someone else comes along, we can't rule that out, but I don't think the cachous, or anything else, necessarily rules out B.S. either. Yes, we can speculate scenarios that don't work for B.S., but just because we can imagine some ways that don't work for B.S. doesn't mean we've ruled him out - we've only ruled out those particular lines of events. To rule out B.S. we would have to show there is no possible way it could be him, and I don't think we can do that based upon the presence of the cachous in her hand. I think c.d.'s argument that she couldn't have been holding them the whole time is fair enough, but we do not know she was holding them when he throws her down. So all that is required is for her to get up, and for things to unfold such that she retrieves the cachous after that point and heads into the ally. It doesn't mean she headed in company with B.S., she may have been separating from him, and he grabs her scarf when she does so.

No, I'm not suggesting that must be what happened. It's just another hypothesis among many, but it is one that keeps B.S. in consideration, and I don't see how changing B.S. to someone else makes it work better since the "someone else" hypothesis is more or less what I described, the one difference being that the someone else version usually has Stride entering the alley in willing company with her attacker, but that's an assumption we make, not a fact drawn from the evidence.

- Jeff

[c.d.]

Hello Jeff,

A very well thought out and I must say unbiased post by you. I would only add a couple of things. Whitechapel was a rough place and I have to believe that such events as Stride encountering the B.S. man were not an uncommon event. But in questioning Schwartz, I have to think the first order of business was to try to determine whether Schwartz saw a murder or just a street hassle. So the following questions were most likely asked. Was Stride on the ground or was she standing when you left the scene? Did you see that the B.S. man had a knife in his hand? Did you see Stride with her hand to her throat? Did you see any blood? Since Swanson allows for the possibility of another killer other than the B.S. man, it seems reasonable to assume that Schwartz told him that as far as he could tell Stride was still alive when he left.

Stride being thrown to the ground and then making her way to into the yard to seek help is reasonable but is also time consuming. I would hope that the B.S. man would have considered the possibility that Schwartz and/or the Pipeman were on their way to finding a P.C. So killing her at this point has always struck me as odd.

If she did not have the cachous in her hand when thrown to the ground, and fearing for her life she is headed to the apparent safety of the club, would she really say to herself now would be a good time for a cachous. Seems unlikely. To me, the cachous in her hand indicate she was at ease at the moment. I don't see that with the possibility of the B.S. man still lurking around.

c.d.

[JeffHamm]

Hello Jeff,

A very well thought out and I must say unbiased post by you. I would only add a couple of things. Whitechapel was a rough place and I have to believe that such events as Stride encountering the B.S. man were not an uncommon event. But in questioning Schwartz, I have to think the first order of business was to try to determine whether Schwartz saw a murder or just a street hassle. So the following questions were most likely asked. Was Stride on the ground or was she standing when you left the scene? Did you see that the B.S. man had a knife in his hand? Did you see Stride with her hand to her throat? Did you see any blood? Since Swanson allows for the possibility of another killer other than the B.S. man, it seems reasonable to assume that Schwartz told him that as far as he could tell Stride was still alive when he left.

From what we know, and making reasonable assumptions about what the police would ask Schwartz, I think it is fair to conclude that Stride was still alive when Schwartz left, at least as far as Schwartz was aware. Given the position he describes B.S. and Stride being in, and they don't correspond to where Stride was eventually found, I think that also seems to be correct.

Stride being thrown to the ground and then making her way to into the yard to seek help is reasonable but is also time consuming. I would hope that the B.S. man would have considered the possibility that Schwartz and/or the Pipeman were on their way to finding a P.C. So killing her at this point has always struck me as odd.

Yes, it is time consuming, but then so is B.S. leaving and another showing up. Also, given as you point out, the area was rough and such disturbances were not uncommon, B.S. could very well presume to know they were not going to get the police, but just get out of the area.

Also, as I'm not pushing for B.S. = JtR, if he's not, then at that time he may still not be planning on killing her - just "setting her straght", type thing.

If she did not have the cachous in her hand when thrown to the ground, and fearing for her life she is headed to the apparent safety of the club, would she really say to herself now would be a good time for a cachous. Seems unlikely. To me, the cachous in her hand indicate she was at ease at the moment. I don't see that with the possibility of the B.S. man still lurking around.

c.d.

Maybe, or maybe she got them out as a comfort thing after thinking her dispute with B.S. was over. Again, we could speculate on why she gets them out, but all that really matters is that it appears she did get them out around that time. Her motive will never be known to us, and I think we run some risks if we put too much stock in our guesses as to what they were.

As I say, I think everything you're suggesting is reasonable, I just think there are also reasonable alternatives that keep the possibilities open in pretty much all directions. Stride has always been a difficult one for me to make up my mind because it is so hard to find anything definitive, or even strongly pointing, in one direction or the other. Her case teeters on the edge of so many possibilities in my view.

- Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

As I say, I think everything you're suggesting is reasonable, I just think there are also reasonable alternatives that keep the possibilities open in pretty much all directions. Stride has always been a difficult one for me to make up my mind because it is so hard to find anything definitive, or even strongly pointing, in one direction or the other. Her case teeters on the edge of so many possibilities in my view.

- Jeff

There are several important factors in her murder which point to another killer other than JTR

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Losmandris]

Schwartz does not say pushed. He said she was thrown to the ground. Now it could well be that he misinterpreted what he saw and indeed Stride was either pulling away or even slipped. However Schwartz used the word thrown. Trying to throw someone to the ground is not easy and would take a fair degree of force. Not excessive force I admit but certainly a fair degree. You keep using the word 'pushing' which is different to 'throwing'. Schwartz to my mind describes an assault.

Should that not read his translator said this. I think we have to take his statement with a pinch of salt here. The fact is it is second hand, through someone else and printed in a newspaper. I reckon the chances of exaggeration are highly likely here.

[Losmandris]

Throwing someone to the floor is an aggressive act. Pushing is less aggressive. I agree we don't know B.S man's motive or intent, we can only go on what Schwartz said he witnessed. His description is seemingly that of an assault. It is a loaded word I agree- it may have been a struggle although again what Schwartz describes is fairly one sided.

Indeed, I dare say assaults like this were commonplace. Abberline I am quite sure would have been totally disinterested in what appears on the surface to have been common assault. What changes things is that within 15 minutes of this assault taking place Elizabeth Stride is found dead at the same spot with her throat cut. Cut in an identical manner to other Ripper victims. We can't rule out that with a 15 minute lag Stride didn't meet someone else. In my view it is unlikely. In my opinion the Ripper that night was seen in the vicinity of his crimes twice- once at Berner Street and once at the entrance to Church Passage.

I was however reading about the Yorkshire Ripper. It was interesting. One of his victims was seen in Leeds City centre banging on the roof of a car and shouting expletives at the driver. On the face of it had someone seen this they would have assumed when she was found dead it was connected. It wasn't. Peter Sutcliffe was 100 yards away watching and as the woman began walking away he pulled his car up, propositioned and she got in- leading to her death. So of course 15 minutes is enough time for JTR if he was lurking to strike. So we have to be open to the possibility. I wouldn't subscribe to the view that is what happened but I wouldn't rule it out either.

I think the reference to the Yorkshire Ripper is very apt here. As someone in need of money asap it is possible that stride was able to compose herself pretty quickly after the incident and find someone else in a very short space of time. She probably couldn't afford not to. We have no idea how frequently Stride was involved in these kind of incidents, she may have been the aggressor or it could be a habitual response from some men who were approached by prostitutes. Taken altogether BS man being the killer is far from absolute in my opinion.

[Sunny Delight]

Should that not read his translator said this. I think we have to take his statement with a pinch of salt here. The fact is it is second hand, through someone else and printed in a newspaper. I reckon the chances of exaggeration are highly likely here.

Yes it was his translator but I am going by Donald Swanson's summary of Schwartz statement which he had sent to his superiors. Again yes it was a translator but this was face to face with the Police and one would assume clarity was sought on the word thrown. Assumptions of course are not certainties but we can be fairly sure clarity was sought on this by those investigating.

[Wickerman]

I was however reading about the Yorkshire Ripper. It was interesting. One of his victims was seen in Leeds City centre banging on the roof of a car and shouting expletives at the driver. On the face of it had someone seen this they would have assumed when she was found dead it was connected. It wasn't. Peter Sutcliffe was 100 yards away watching and as the woman began walking away he pulled his car up, propositioned and she got in- leading to her death. So of course 15 minutes is enough time for JTR if he was lurking to strike. So we have to be open to the possibility. I wouldn't subscribe to the view that is what happened but I wouldn't rule it out either.

Good that you brought this up. I could not remember the name of the victim, so had to get Sutcliffe's confession.

https://reprobatepress.com/2019/04/02/the-confession-of-peter-sutcliffe/

As it turns out this type of incident occurred twice with Sutcliffe.
The first victim that he came upon having an altercation with someone was Patricia Atkinson, in Bradford. As you say she was shouting obscenities and banging on the roof of a white mini, which pulled away at speed.
Sutcliffe watched, then drove up to her.

The next time was in Leeds, the victim was Marilyn Moore, he saw her walking along the street and a car pulled up, she rejected the prospective client, and Sutcliffe pulled up next to her.

As you rightly point out, it only took seconds for each victim to meet their killer directly following some type of altercation with another person.
Only circumstances separate the possibility that these women may have been seen rejecting someone, minutes? before they were murdered. It would only be expected that suspicion would fall on the rejected clients, and not some other stranger who no-one knew was present.

[Wickerman]

In other words, there is nothing in the evidence that requires that B.S. gets Stride into the alley immediately after she's gone to the ground as per Schwartz (and the killed by another hypothesis requires that there be some time between those events). We just don't know what transpired, and while it may seem odd to suggest she stuck around and argued with B.S. after that initial throwing to the ground, given she doesn't yell very loudly, there's nothing to suggest she was terrified either (so really, nothing to suggest she would necessarily flee in any sort of panic).

What seems to be missing in all these scenarios is the possibility that Stride was not alone in the gateway.
Packer speaks to the time Stride arrives in Berner st., and accepting his times are not reliable, he does at least provide a sequence of events. Stride & her man buy some grapes from his shop on the west side of Berner st. They then cross the road and stand there for approx 30 mins, only to cross back to the club side, and stand there. This is where Packer looses sight of them.

Now, for an approx. time we only need look to the evidence of PC Smith, who described Stride at about 12:30-35 in Berner st. in the company of a man carrying a parcel. Stride was not alone, and if we retrace her steps backwards we find that from 11:00pm at least, she had been in the company of a man. So it is not too outrageous to accept that Stride was still standing in the gateway with parcel-man when BS-man & Schwartz approached the gateway from Commercial Rd.
It is Packer who placed Stride in the gateway in the company of a man, who must have been carrying a package of some kind.
We know the man she was with was not BS-man because Schwartz saw him arrive, he followed BS-man down Berner st., and he arrived alone.
Stride was with Parcel-man, standing in the gateway of Dutfield's Yard.

Schwartz being so focused on the altercation, he had not noticed Paecel-man standing in the shadows.

This then offers Parcel-man as the prime suspect in the Stride case.

[Sunny Delight]

What seems to be missing in all these scenarios is the possibility that Stride was not alone in the gateway.
Packer speaks to the time Stride arrives in Berner st., and accepting his times are not reliable, he does at least provide a sequence of events. Stride & her man buy some grapes from his shop on the west side of Berner st. They then cross the road and stand there for approx 30 mins, only to cross back to the club side, and stand there. This is where Packer looses sight of them.

Now, for an approx. time we only need look to the evidence of PC Smith, who described Stride at about 12:30-35 in Berner st. in the company of a man carrying a parcel. Stride was not alone, and if we retrace her steps backwards we find that from 11:00pm at least, she had been in the company of a man. So it is not too outrageous to accept that Stride was still standing in the gateway with parcel-man when BS-man & Schwartz approached the gateway from Commercial Rd.
It is Packer who placed Stride in the gateway in the company of a man, who must have been carrying a package of some kind.
We know the man she was with was not BS-man because Schwartz saw him arrive, he followed BS-man down Berner st., and he arrived alone.
Stride was with Parcel-man, standing in the gateway of Dutfield's Yard.

Schwartz being so focused on the altercation, he had not noticed Paecel-man standing in the shadows.

This then offers Parcel-man as the prime suspect in the Stride case.

This seems rather too far fetched. Firstly we have to believe Matthew Packer who seemingly contradicted himself and offered evidence that also seemingly described someone else. He described a woman wearing a white flower. He was never asked to identify the body. He had initially told Police he had seen no one in Berner Street on the night. There is no way we can take Packer seriously.

I often wonder if the person PC Smith saw Stride talking to was someone known to her. It seems that way from the brief description we have. She doesn't seem to have been propositioning him. Of course they may have modified their behaviour until the Policeman passed. Smith doesn't elaborate on whether they seemed friendly or like they knew each other- just that they were both sober.

I think a problem for those advocating another assailant is Fanny Mortimer. If she came to the door at say 12:49am then the assailant would have only had a few minutes to approach, be propositioned or proposition and take Stride into the yard after the B.S man incident. This is why I see events transpiring like this:

12:44-12:46am- Israel Schwartz witnesses B.S man assaulting Elizabeth Stride at the entrance to Dutfields Yard.

12:46- 12:48am- B.S man strangles Stride with her scarf and cuts her throat. He is spooked into fleeing and Fanny Mortimer hears him pass her house.

12:49-12:50- Fanny Mortimer goes to her door and stands there for 8-9 minutes. This means she is at her door from say 12;49am- 12:58am. She only sees one person in the street.

12:55am- Leon Goldstein passes by Berner Street. Fanny Mortimer sees him and this co- orborates her statement as he shows up to the Police station the next day to clear himself of suspicion.

1:00am- Louis Diemschitz returns to Dutfields Yard and find the body of Liz Stride.