Where is Liz Stride?

[DRoy]

Caz,

May I turn the question round and ask you why must Stride not have been in the market to earn a few pence in whatever way the buyer at that hour requested? She was completely without funds when found dead. Why must this be interpreted to mean she already had her bed and breakfast sorted (feather pillows, scrambled eggs and smoked salmon, no doubt) courtesy of the new beau who so discourteously left her standing outside the club to become just 'another' murdered woman?

Elizabeth Tanner claims she paid Liz 6d earlier that day. She had money. Apparently she also paid Tanner for a bed the same night meaning she had a place to sleep already plus had 2d for $hits and giggles. She could have been soliciting but it appears she didn't have to.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Michael,

If Louis Diemshitz insistence on 1am means he was approaching from the direction of Commercial for a few minutes...unless some Ripper fan wants to suggest he had a thoroughbred lashed out front...then it follows based on Fanny Mortimers statements that she should have been able to see and/or hear the cart and horse approaching. She was at that door, by her own account, at that time. She didnt. Apparently the young couple who was interviewed had no corroborating evidence to provide, perhaps other than seeing Fanny.

Mortimer said she heard the cart and pony arrive but suggests it was just after 1:00. She heard it but had already gone inside at that point.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Jon Guy,

Again, why is it you doubt Schwartz ?

I've said it thoughout many posts why I doubt it. Why is it you believe in Schwartz? What corroborating evidence is there that what he said actually happened? It doesn't appear that the medical evidence supports it. James Brown's inquest testimony doesn't support it. Nothing does support it.

Cheers
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

Michael,

Mortimer said she heard the cart and pony arrive but suggests it was just after 1:00. She heard it but had already gone inside at that point.

Cheers
DRoy

She did say that she heard the cart and pony shortly after 1am DRoy....my point being Louis insisted that he arrived at the gates at 1am.

From the Inquest :"I reside at No. 40 Berner-street, and am steward of the International Workmen's Club. I am married, and my wife lives at the club too, and assists in the management. On Saturday I left home about half-past eleven in the morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning." Fannys statements make it clear she was at the door from 12:50 until 1. She didnt see anyone coming down the road.

I wonder if Fanny could tell where the sound came from? If a cart and horse were to pass by her place, would she know whether it was coming or going?

Cheers

[The Good Michael]

What I'm learning from this thread is that it's possible none of the victims were prostitutes and that they were just women on dates or going grocery shopping, or in the case of Kelly, just a gal having a guy over for a pail of tea.

Hmmm..no it's not that they WEREN'T prostitutes, it's just that on their last nights on Earth, they may not have been. I say this because if we can assert that Stride wasn't out soliciting, we can do the same for all the others, and fair enough.

The odds of all of the women (who were undoubtedly prostitutes for much of the time), NOT soliciting on their last nights on Earth must be pretty high for so many people to see what I obviously cannot. Good job people. Eyes of a hawk.

Mike

[DRoy]

Michael,

I wonder if Fanny could tell where the sound came from? If a cart and horse were to pass by her place, would she know whether it was coming or going?

I just posted in the other Liz thread about 'time'.

Yes I believe she'd know whether the cart was coming or going. Obviously the sound of one approaching would get louder as it approached. Plus, Mortimer lived there for years, it wouldn't have been the first time she ever heard Diemchutz arrive with his pony and cart.

Cheers
DRoy

[Ben]

I always find it incredibly strange that anyone should feel the need to conjure up the existence of a second man arriving on the scene after broad-shoulders (supposedly) left. We have eyewitness evidence of an attack being perpetrated on the victim around the time she was believed to have been murdered. Unless Schwarz was lying, the likelihood that "BS" man was Stride's killer is so overwhelmingly and irrefutably large that any other possibility is extremely remote. Very few people are so astonishingly unlucky as to be attacked in the same location by two separate men within minutes of each other, and it's even less probable that Stride should have continued to hover around at the first attack's location. The only explanation I can think of for the resistance of such an obvious conclusion is that the actions and behaviour of BS doesn't doesn't gel, in some people's minds, with their mental perception of Jack the Ripper.

If that's really what people think, then it makes far better sense for them to argue against Stride being a ripper victim than to argue that it must have been Jack and that he must have snuck in after BS left. Even this is unnecessary, since serial killers are not robotic and have occasional lapses in judgment and approach, and this holds true for the more "organized" offenders too. Perhaps the ripper had drunk too much on this occasion? Or perhaps he was taken aback by Stride's non-compliance. But to argue that BS wasn't Jack because he didn't behave like him makes little sense, in light of what we know about other serial killers. And as Abby points out, the similarity between BS and Lawende's man in sufficient to infer that they may have been the same person.

All the best,
Ben

[Michael W Richards]

I always find it incredibly strange that anyone should feel the need to conjure up the existence of a second man arriving on the scene after broad-shoulders (supposedly) left. We have eyewitness evidence of an attack being perpetrated on the victim around the time she was believed to have been murdered. Unless Schwarz was lying, the likelihood that "BS" man was Stride's killer is so overwhelmingly and irrefutably large that any other possibility is extremely remote. Very few people are so astonishingly unlucky as to be attacked in the same location by two separate men within minutes of each other, and it's even less probable that Stride should have continued to hover around at the first attack's location. The only explanation I can think of for the resistance of such an obvious conclusion is that the actions and behaviour of BS doesn't doesn't gel, in some people's minds, with their mental perception of Jack the Ripper.

If that's really what people think, then it makes far better sense for them to argue against Stride being a ripper victim than to argue that it must have been Jack and that he must have snuck in after BS left. Even this is unnecessary, since serial killers are not robotic and have occasional lapses in judgment and approach, and this holds true for the more "organized" offenders too. Perhaps the ripper had drunk too much on this occasion? Or perhaps he was taken aback by Stride's non-compliance. But to argue that BS wasn't Jack because he didn't behave like him makes little sense, in light of what we know about other serial killers. And as Abby points out, the similarity between BS and Lawende's man in sufficient to infer that they may have been the same person.

All the best,
Ben

Hi Ben,

Its always nice to debate civilly I think, and the above fits that description,... I heartily agree that if the Schwartz story is to be believed it is likely BSM that is her killer, even with his overt technique, it could still have been this Ripper fellow,...but that line of thought inevitably leads to a brick wall when we can see that she is not ripped, nor pre-ripped, nor touched again after a single cut...as far as the physical evidence reads anyway. If Fanny Mortimer is correct in how she describes the time from 12:50 until 1am, then there is a distinct possibility that Liz is either with her killer, being killed, or lying there dying while her killer leaves the immediate area...but not through the gates.

If she is already with her killer at 12:50, then that means Louis is 10 minutes away. So, likely no interruption. If she is struggling with her killer, that means she is cut closer to the later estimate given by Dr Blackwell, of approx 12:56am. Still the issue of interruptus evidence. And the escape of her killer. If she is already bleeding out....then where can her killer go unseen but into the club via the side door? The only scenario of those 3 that leaves room for the suggestion he was interrupted is the 2nd, but again, we are missing any evidence of any further intention.

And perhaps Ive been lax in addressing this recurring point, but Lawendes Man and BSM are not dressed alike.....they are dressed similarly, but seriously I doubt many people here would suggest that the man changes his clothing between murders.

All the best Ben

[DRoy]

Ben


I agree with almost everything you said. The only problems being that you accept Schwartz and therefore believe that BS Man existed. I'm not sold on Schwartz or his story.

If he did exist and it happened as Schwartz said, I would tend to agree that BS Man is her killer regardless of whether he is the notorious 'Jack' or not.

Cheers
DRoy

[GregBaron]

Jewish Conspiracy Part XXI

Hi boys,

Since conspiracies are in the air let's extrapolate.

If Schwarz fabricated or was coached to protect the Jews then 45 minutes
later perhaps Lawende also fabricated for the same reason. Suppose Jack
was recognized as a Jew by both parties and to prevent the inevitable
pogrom the conspiracy was hatched......

If this were correct, old papa Anderson was right.........!

The problem with this is that the apron and graffito don't seem to fit...


Greg

[lynn cates]

sigh

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Conspiracy? Sigh.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

financial situation

Hello Caroline. Thanks.

"May I turn the question round and ask you why must Stride not have been in the market to earn a few pence in whatever way the buyer at that hour requested? She was completely without funds when found dead."

Yes, but she had her doss for the night, right? And she could go back to Kidney at any time, right?

"Why must this be interpreted to mean she already had her bed and breakfast sorted (feather pillows, scrambled eggs and smoked salmon, no doubt) courtesy of the new beau who so discourteously left her standing outside the club to become just 'another' murdered woman?"

Don't understand this part. Sorry.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Bevallom

Hello (again) Caroline. Thanks.

In which language would he have made this confession?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Never on a Sunday.

Hello Michael. Thanks.

"Don't prostitutes sell? Not always mind you."

So they can take a night off? Splendid! My point.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

dogmatically opposed to dogma

Hello (yet again) Caroline. Thanks.

"Why so dogmatic?"

Hmm, are you dogmatically opposed to dogma? (heh-heh) Seriously, it seems obvious that this story is in place to implicate a non-Jew as Stride's killer--and that, even if the story is true.

If you were walking down the street and saw a fight break out, and later found that one combatant were dead, whom would be your first suspect?

And, once again, to be frank, I MUCH prefer Schwartz to be telling the truth--much easier for my ripperological Weltanschauung.

What other person with a knife? PM?

Cheers.
LC