Where is Liz Stride?

[lynn cates]

alternate approach

Hello CD. Thanks.

"Except that it was a pretty piss poor attack in the annals of attacks and that he (the BS man) went on to kill her after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man."

Yes indeed-- if true. But anger may not always be abated--even though its manifestation is inconvenient.

"And of course the cachous and the fact that Liz doesn't seem to be too afraid at this point hence the nature of her screams. And the fact that no one heard any argument after Schwartz left. And Liz's clothes don't seem to have been ripped which you would expect if she were pulled or dragged. Other than those things, yeah it had to be the BS man."

CD, I'll answer carefully so you don't think I'm sarcastic.

As a matter of fact, I tend to agree with you on most of these points. But FAR from pointing a finger at a later "ripper" attack which was interrupted, I am inclined, instead, to question Schwartz's story. If Schwartz is telling the truth, why no signs of struggle, cachous in hand, and no corroboration of the story?

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

[QUOTE=lynn cates;259964]Hello (again) CD. Thanks.

"So let's see. We have a known prostitute standing by herself late at night."

Known by whom?

Oh, please. Do we really need to go there again?

"It seems pretty damn reasonable to me that Jack might assume that she was soliciting."

Now you are assuming "Jack" killed her. Look, I've no trouble with assumptions nor yet bias. But why not admit it?

Lynn,

I am not assuming that Jack killed her. I don't know who killed her. I am simply putting forth reasons why that is more likely the case than not in my opinion. Isn't that what the whole Liz argument is about or did I miss something? And quite frankly, if I am biased in favor of Jack, you are equally biased that it was not Jack. It can work both ways.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

I agree, Lynn. But why is questioning Schwartz's honesty the only option? I think he relayed what he thought he saw but since he did not speak English and his story comes to us through an interpreter, I think it has to be taken with a grain (and maybe a large grain) of salt.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Ben,

"The presence of the cachous in her hand indicates preparedness for an attack."

I can see it now -- "stand back. I have cachous and I am prepared to use them."

You provided reasonable explanations. But there are a lot of explanations that have to be provided. That's the problem. To me, a much simpler and to my mind much more probable explantation, is that the BS man was simply a drunk who hassled her and then went on his way leaving the door open for Jack.

But then again this is deja vu all over again. We disagree. So be it.

Stay well, Ben.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

One last time and then I have to go. Are you questioning Schawartz's story per se or his story as the basis for the BS man being Liz's killer? As I said to Ben, Schwartz's story seems to make much more sense when seen in the light of the BS man just being an obnoxious drunk who hassled a prostitute and then went on his way. Nothing more.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

story

Hello CD. Thanks.


"Oh, please. Do we really need to go there again?"

That's how I feel on EVERY Stride thread.

"I am simply putting forth reasons why that is more likely the case than not in my opinion. Isn't that what the whole Liz argument is about or did I miss something?"

If not for the BS story, I think one could almost plausibly hold that Liz was killed by some "Jack" character.

But with BS, and then needing to calm down, and now enter another character. Not to say an interruption. Sorry, I cannot, away with.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

alternate

Hello (again) CD. Thanks.

"But why is questioning Schwartz's honesty the only option?"

It's not the only option. Schwartz could be telling the truth. And BS man killed Liz. He was a Gentile bully, possibly drunk, and who hurled a racial slur at a Jew. he also murdered a woman with his knife.

I can live with this.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

fruit defense

Hello Ben, CD.

"I can see it now -- "stand back. I have cachous and I am prepared to use them." "

Right. Fresh fruit is MUCH better. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

nothing more

Hello CD. Thanks.

"Schwartz's story seems to make much more sense when seen in the light of the BS man just being an obnoxious drunk who hassled a prostitute and then went on his way. Nothing more."

If his story is true, no doubt this is how it happened--although I'd say "supposed prostitute."

Actually, I'm about 60-40 against. If, however, I come to accept this story, then just a passing drunk who gave a lady a hard time, lost his temper, and killed her in a fit of pique.

"'Ere now. Move along. Nothing to see."

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

But with BS, and then needing to calm down, and now enter another character. Not to say an interruption. Sorry, I cannot, away with.

But quite possibly one that she had been with earlier that night, not a complete stranger. I agree entirely that there is no evidence of a third-man that night, but we lack definitive evidence of so much across these murders.

In those 15? minutes following Schwartz taking off, a great deal could have happened.
Look what occured at Mitre Sq. between 1:35 and 1:45 am.

.

[lynn cates]

errata

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"But quite possibly one that she had been with earlier that night, not a complete stranger."

Fair enough. So he is lurking in the shadows and brooding, awaiting an opportunity?

"I agree entirely that there is no evidence of a third-man that night, but we lack definitive evidence of so much across these murders."

Very well. And that's what I'm on about.

"In those 15? minutes following Schwartz taking off, a great deal could have happened."

Yes. And I believe that, in the first 1/3 of that span, Liz was well and truly dead.

"Look what occured at Mitre Sq. between 1:35 and 1:45 am."

IF Lawende saw Kate. Not sure he did.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hi Lynn.

Fair enough. So he is lurking in the shadows and brooding, awaiting an opportunity?

Not necessarily, if a man like Goldstein can walk through the crime scene only noticed by Mortimer, how sure are we another male couldn't have appeared on the scene while Mortimer was otherwise occupied?
We do not have a complete picture of events that night, we are limiting ourselves to solving the puzzle with only half the pieces

"In those 15? minutes following Schwartz taking off, a great deal could have happened."

Yes. And I believe that, in the first 1/3 of that span, Liz was well and truly dead.

I'm more inclined towards the latter 1/3rd.

"Look what occured at Mitre Sq. between 1:35 and 1:45 am."

IF Lawende saw Kate. Not sure he did.

To be honest, me neither.

.

[Garry Wroe]

And as Abby points out, the similarity between BS and Lawende's man in sufficient to infer that they may have been the same person.

As I'm sure you are aware, Ben, since eyewitness descriptions are notoriously unreliable, any superficial similarities between Broad Shoulders and Church Passage Man have to be viewed with a great deal of caution. For me it is the behavioural characteristics of these two men which are the most telling. Whereas one appeared to have been under the influence, was aggressive, abusive and clearly on a short fuse, the other was quiet, calm and patient. Forty-five minutes might have been sufficient for a killer to have travelled from Berner Street to Mitre Square, but it was inadequate for him to have both sobered up and undergone a personality metamorphosis.

[Ben]

Good to hear from you again, Garry!

I certainly take your point that the behaviour of BS was quite different to that of Lawende's man. Unusually for me, I'm very much on the fence when it comes to Stride's inclusion, or otherwise, in the ripper's tally. I feel very strongly, though, that the pro-Jack group lose serious points when they argue for another man (Jack) arriving on the scene after BS supposedly departed.

All the best,
Ben

[Garry Wroe]

Thanks, Ben. Agree entirely.