Where is Liz Stride?

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

.

"who else popped up in the Ripper saga wearing a peaked cap?"

Umm, well, Mrs. Long's "foreign looking" man wore a deerstalker. Also, the early reports of "Leather Apron" sometimes had him in a deerstalker. Unless seen in profile or from behind, the deerstalker looks like a peaked cap--which it is.

Precisely. We only have the twins Marshall`s Man and BS Man, and Church Passage Man in peak caps....wait a minute!!

[caz]

It stands to reason, if Schwartz was saying it how he saw it, that at approximately 12.45am there were just the four people on Berner St in a position to have seen one another: himself, Stride, BS man and Pipeman. With one of them dead and two being potential suspects, and nobody else around at that time, it's hardly surprising that we only have Schwartz's word for what happened and who he saw.

That doesn't mean we can conclude that he was lying about any of the details, let alone making the whole thing up. If he wasn't even there, how on earth could he have been sure that nobody else was, who could rubbish everything he had claimed about the incident?

We know there were at least two people there unseen by anyone at the time of the murder - Stride and her killer.

I suspect you'd have to have an agenda to want to lift Schwartz right out of the equation. Not a good move IMHO.

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

description

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Although there are similarities between BS and Marshall's man, they do not carry over to Church passage man. Looking at the full description, given to the police--but not at inquest, the coat is not right nor or the trousers.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

members

Hello Caroline.

"If he wasn't even there, how on earth could he have been sure that nobody else was?"

Possibly because two club members had been there just minutes before.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Michael

The "off and on" quote to me has more credibility, its more likely she popped in and out during that 20 minutes.

Absolutely, Mike!! If she had been at her door for the whole time between 12.30 and 1am she would have seen the owner of the footsteps that she assumed were of a policeman.

Israel Schwartz claims he came upon Liz and BSM in front of the gates at 12:45am.....yet neither witness from the club who were at the gates at some point between 12:30(Lave), and 12:40 (Lave/Eagle), saw anyone. No Israel, no BSM, and no Liz. The street was as one witness put it, "deserted".

Yes, so who was observing the street at 12.45, when Schwartz and co. were there?

Fanny, from 12:50 until 1am, sees only the young couple. No Louis and Cart approaching, or arriving, since Louis claims he arrived at 1.

.. and that fits too. Diemschitz got the time off the clock at the top of the road, it was 1am. Mortimer had just shut her door.

Edward Spooner approximates what time he was at the Beehive with his lady friend by virtue of his time leaving the pub and a casual 20 minute walk to arrive at that location.

Spooners approximation of the time was the loosest of the lot. He ven admitted he fixed the time by the closing time of the Beehive.

He says, at the Inquest and to the press, that he saw the men calling for help and went with them to the gates at around 12:40-12:45. Everyone seems to believe he was mistaken about his time. But 3 club members, including Isaac Kozebrodski, stated to the police within 1 hour of the murder that they heard about the woman on the ground approx 10 minutes after the half hour, so....approx 12:40ish. Issac also said he went to search for help alone just after that, and Louis claims that he went with Issac[s] around 1:05am.

Luckily, as one of the Doctors carried a watch we know all the hoo-ha didn`t happen half an hour earlier than thought.

As for witnesses seeing peaked caps, Marshall saw Liz to early to be of any use,

Eh? What do you mean too early to be of any use.

and Lawende described someone dressed much differently than the Berner "suspect" described by Schwartz.

No he didn`t. He was the same age, height, wearing a peaked cap and a jacket?

And as I point out in the thread, no-one sees Liz after that other than Israel...

Yes, ten minutes elapsed between the Smith and Schwartz sightings, and then another 10/15 mins between the Schwartz and Diemschitz sighting.
Stride was probably lying in the dark by the wall for ten minutes.
Hardly, the Bermuda Triangle

Liz Stride seems to go somewhere just after PC Smith leaves, and according to club witnesses, that isnt into the passageway or yard.
So...where is Liz Stride?

How about one of the little alley`s or passageways running off Berner Street such as Batty Gardens, or 15 yards around the corner into the other street, or
waiting for the coast to be clear so she could nip into the rear of the yard.
Have a look at a detailed map of Berner St as it my help getting to the bottom of ...where Liz Stride is!!

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Although there are similarities between BS and Marshall's man, they do not carry over to Church passage man. Looking at the full description, given to the police--but not at inquest, the coat is not right nor or the trousers.

BS Man and CP Man were both still wearing a short jacket and trousers.

The differences are minimal and can be explained by the difference between the two witnesses, Lawende and Schwartz, and also the differing situations that these witnesses were in when they were ermmm .. witnessing.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Possibly because two club members had been there just minutes before.

Ah, so they weren`t there at the crucial time.

[caz]

Precisely my point, Jon, thanks. 'Just minutes before' make all the difference in the world. If nobody was actually there to see anything at the magic 12.45, nobody would know there was nobody there to prove Schwartz a liar.

Love,

Caz
X

[Bridewell]

However, she heard loud steps and could hear the commotion when Liz was found so why wouldn't she hear Liz scream even if it wasn't that loudly?

I just wonder how good the interpreter was who translated Schwartz's story. Perhaps the woman appeared (visually) to scream but no sound emerged? Translations - even good ones - lose accuracy.

[Jon Guy]

Sorry for sticking me big nose in there, Caz. I thought you may have gone away for a day or two and I was on a roll ..

As you will know it would have only took 2 or 3 mins to walk down Berner St to the junction... if we`re boiling it down to minute by minute timings.

[Jon Guy]

I just wonder how good the interpreter was who translated Schwartz's story. Perhaps the woman appeared (visually) to scream but no sound emerged? Translations - even good ones - lose accuracy.

Indeed, Colin. Three not very loud screams seems to be a literal translation.

[Observer]

Observer,

Mortimer didn't testify and neither did Schwartz. It seems you have no problem accepting his story(?). I've already said it, if Schwartz was believed by the police which it seems he was, and he claims to have witnessed something when Mortimer witnessed nothing, that is why people appreciate him and not her.

Instead of repeating myself, please reread my last post where I talk about Mortimer's hearing.

Does anyone see Schwartz? Nope. BS Man? Nope. Pipeman? Nope. The only person that can vouch for Schwartz's story is Schwartz himself.

Cheers
DRoy

Hi DRoy

I believe I addressed your query regarding Mortimer's hearing in my last post, but in the event I was not very clear here it is again.

My contention is that Liz Stride did not emit a very loud noise at all whislt being assaulted, not loud enough in fact for Mortimer to hear it inside her house.

I also gave some possibles reasons why she did not shout out loudly whilst being attacked.

The problem with Mortimer (and this problem has been debated many times) is that she stated that she stood at her door for most of the period between 12:30 and 1:00 a.m. she stated she saw only one individual, Goldstien. Had she actually been at the door for the length of time she stated she would have saw Schwartz et al. It's plain she is not a reliable witness.

Schwartz is a different kettle of fish, if he actually saw what he stated he saw then he's a very important witness indeed. And you know his story has a ring of truth to it, particulary the Lipski incident. As has been pointed out it's hard to reconcile the cachous held in Liz Stride's hand with the attack as witnessed by Schwartz, but it's not a problem if BS man was not Stride's killer. I don't believe he was, and for any one who states there was not enough time for another assailant to enter the scene after BS mans aassault I have only one word, piffle.

Regards

Observer

[Semper_Eadem]

To all,

You have ro wonder, would Lave or Eagle see Mortimer? She is the people watcher, not them. They have a place to go, Mortimer doesn't. She's checking out the scenery like she probably always does. There are people watchers out there and when you're sitting stagnant while everyone else moves around, chances are you see what they don't. Supposition again but think about it.

Cheers
DRoy

I could see that. I used to be a people watcher when I was a little kid in the summer time, just sit on the front step and see who went by.

[Observer]

If Liz Stride was indeed soliciting at the time of her death, and for some reason an individual took exception to her propositioning him, and decided to ill use her, then Stride would have been fully aware that there was a distinct possibility that a copper on the beat would intervene, PC Smith had already passed her on one occasion. Hence the stifled cry. Reason for irate potential punter? Small business man losing trade as a result of Jack the Rippers antics? Far fetched? Not as far fetched as memebers of the IWEC covering up for one of their number commiting the crime.

[Semper_Eadem]

Just my 2cent worth.

Speaking for myself, I always thought of Mrs Mortimer as the neighborhood gossip or busybody. I could see her fibbing or been mistaken on the length of time she was out there. I can't speak for anybody else but that's the way I always saw her.

However, we really don't know that much about Mrs Mortimer's character. Perhaps she was a people watcher and stepped out of her house for a bit of fresh air and got to watching the scenery and forgot about the time. People back then did not wear watches or cell phones like we do now to gage time. She might of had a clock near by in her house but if she felt that not that much time had passed she might indeed have been out there awhile and heard quite a lot of the goings on that night.