Where is Liz Stride?

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

It's entirely possible, in which case the hidden man would have had good reason to stay well in the shadows waiting for BS man to bugger off, and he'd have had the huge advantage of killing her just after BS man had allowed himself to be seen manhandling the victim by not one but two witnesses.

Love,

Caz
X

Well hello my dear, nice to see you.

Yes, I'm wondering if we cannot see the wood for the trees. I initially threw that out as a hypothesis, but more and more I am warming to the idea.

The man seen by Smith being thee most likely suspect.

[caz]

Quote:
Originally Posted by caz
Tell this to Mike Richards. His contention was that Stride didn’t dip into her sixpence to secure a bed because she had no intention of returning there that night. He argues that the sixpence went on her flower and cachous to make herself more attractive to the man she thought would be meeting her at the club and whisking her off somewhere. If there is evidence that she paid for a bed up front, fully intending to return after whatever business she had at the club, bang goes Mike’s theory. But the fact remains that she was penniless when found dead, and therefore entirely without funds for her next meal or drink, even if she had lined up a bed with her name on it.

Love,

Caz
X

She left the lodging house with 6d and without flowers on her breast and any cashous that we hear of...and later she is found without that money and with the flower arrangement and the cashous. So, hardly conjecture without any foundation. Which of course suggesting a Ripper for this killing would be. I would be very surprised if the cost of those 2 items at the time exceeded 6d.

Hi Mike,

You need to address this to DRoy and Lynn, who both suggested that Stride had booked and paid for a bed that night before hitting the streets. Either you or they are wrong about this.

You suggest I insert a lot of theory when I make a post Caz, when in fact anything that I have proposed has foundation somewhere in the accepted evidence.

Again, if there is evidence that Stride had a bed lined up, how would that affect your theory about her intention not to return that night?

Your choice of a dramatic variance in MO for the Berner Street Killer, (since you assume this killing was done by the same person who killed the first 2 Canonicals), and your belief that Liz Stride was a street prostitute...are 2 theories which are both purely speculatory and without provenance in any known evidence.

Where have I stated it as my 'belief' that Stride was on the game? I merely allow for the possibility, but I don't let the issue cloud my judgement regarding who didn't kill her. The ripper could still have done it if she wasn't (or was) offering sexual services; someone else could have done it if she was (or wasn't).

I'm not the one slamming doors shut on all the reasonable possibilities and only leaving myself with one for which I have no evidence whatsoever.

Love,

Caz
X

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"The woman wore two Dahlias, one red and one white, that in itself must narrow the field."

not all have described it that way. And one reported white AND red.

Indeed, Spooner did if I'm not mistaken "red and white flowers". Reid called it a "Red Rose", Blackwell (and Packer?) a Geranium (who both likely know as much about flowers as I do), and B & G along with the Daily News - "two Dahlias".

Have you seen the list of coincidences between Liz and Mrs. Watts?

Impressive.

In a word, yes!

(And I'd like G & B MUCH better without the "Leather Apron" remarks--sounds contrived.)

I'd call it sarcasm.

[caz]

Hi Caz.

He could equally have been inside the yard out of view to Schwartz. By this I mean, we have always assumed Stride was in the gateway alone, though we have no good indication of this.
Stride had never been seen alone that night up to this point, she was always with someone. So who is to say she was not with a man in the shadows of the gateway when BSman staggered passed?
Was this the reason for the aggravation, BSman saw her with another man?

Hi Jon,

It's entirely possible, in which case the hidden man would have had good reason to stay well in the shadows waiting for BS man to bugger off, and he'd have had the huge advantage of killing her just after BS man had allowed himself to be seen manhandling the victim by not one but two witnesses.

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

change

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Well, if they saw her, the landscape changes a good bit. See why?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

remarks

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"The woman wore two Dahlias, one red and one white, that in itself must narrow the field."

not all have described it that way. And one reported white AND red.

"Add to this the build, the height, the clothing and the features, at what point do we say "enough!"'

Well, when we've actually HAD enough.

Have you seen the list of coincidences between Liz and Mrs. Watts?

Impressive.

(And I'd like G & B MUCH better without the "Leather Apron" remarks--sounds contrived.)

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Can you see someone for a few seconds and misidentify later? I think so.

It was more than a few seconds.

Best, Gardner and friend were watching and taking the p#ss out of the couple for a few minutes, even passing them as they walked into the pub.

Dahlia`s, roses.... despite his name, we shouldn`t be too specific about what type of flower Gardner and friends, all young East End dockers, claimed the woman was wearing.

[Wickerman]

Hi Lynn.

Hello Jon. Thanks.

That's the one.

Have you ever been confronted by one or more new person/s? This happens to me when I have a day off and act as substitute for a local school district. I have about 125 students in a day. Can I confuse one with another? Yes.

Can you see someone for a few seconds and misidentify later? I think so.

Cheers.
LC

The woman wore two Dahlias, one red and one white, that in itself must narrow the field. Add to this the build, the height, the clothing and the features, at what point do we say "enough!"

[Phil H]

Corpses often look different to the person in life - - the facial muscles change. Also does not the nose often become "sharper"/more evident in a corpse?

Phil

[lynn cates]

identification

Hello Jon. Thanks.

That's the one.

Have you ever been confronted by one or more new person/s? This happens to me when I have a day off and act as substitute for a local school district. I have about 125 students in a day. Can I confuse one with another? Yes.

Can you see someone for a few seconds and misidentify later? I think so.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

"I have been to the mortuary, and am almost certain the woman there is the one we saw at the Bricklayers' Arms. She is the same slight woman, and seems the same height. The face looks the same, but a little paler, and the bridge of the nose does not look so prominent."

Ah, ok, but everything else is the same.

Should we expect all dead people to look the same as when they were alive?

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

But Brown and Marshall saw no flower. B & G did. But a dahlia is not a rose. And don't forget the nose.

Cheers.
LC

Hmm, but October is not the season for Roses, its the season for Dahlia's.

What about the nose?

[lynn cates]

A rose by any other name?

Hello Jon. Thanks.

But Brown and Marshall saw no flower. B & G did. But a dahlia is not a rose. And don't forget the nose.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Still the same. Discrepancies in description.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn.

Ah, so you mean they did see a woman (wearing a flower), but it may not have been Liz?

The first mention in the press of Dahlia's came in the Daily News on Monday.
"...and at her breast were pinned two dahlias.."
But Best & Gardiner's story first appeared in the evening papers the same day, they were interviewed Sunday.

John Gardner said:
"before I got into the mortuary to-day (Sunday), I told you the woman had a flower in her jacket, and that she had a short jacket. Well, I have been to the mortuary and there she was with the dahlias on her right side of her jacket."

[lynn cates]

discrepancies

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Still the same. Discrepancies in description.

Cheers.
LC