Where is Liz Stride?

[Wickerman]

Is Schwartz believed because he claims to have seem something where Mortimer didn't?

Hi DRoy.

Because a body was found in a spot where only minutes before no body was seen, seeing "nobody" is relegated to second place on account of the fact that we all know "nobody" did not kill her.

On the other hand, if Schwartz had seen the Seven Dwarfs passing out of Dutfields Yard everybody would want to know their descriptions, how many had knives, which way they went, which ones ate the grapes.....


Seriously, Schwartz had something to offer, Mortimer - nothing.

.

[DRoy]

Jon,

I truly am not a conspiracy theorist so I believe in most cases that things are the way they are. That said, think about this for a second...

None of the witnesses that testified at the inquest provided anything at all. Zip. Nobody saw anything at all. The one person who apparently saw Liz get attacked doesn't testify. The only person who can vouch or verify that attack is Mortimer since the other witnesses are before the attack.

Schwartz saw something and Mortimer saw nothing. In the alternative, Mortimer saw nothing because Schwartz's story didn't happen. Mortimer is a liar or Schwartz is. Mortimer is mistaken or Schwartz was.

Jon, your comment about nobody did not kill her is witty but makes no sense. Anyone that knew she was murdered there could have told the exact same story as Schwartz and they would have looked like just the hero Schwartz does. Reminds me of the Ripper letter about the double event and posted after everyone was aware of it. It's a weak argument.

Pretend for one second...if Schwartz lied and we didn't know about the lie, would he still be an important witness? Yes he would. Because we'd trust him over the seven dwarfs who didn't see anything.

Cheers
DRoy

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
My take on this , is somewhat different, I suggest that Stride had already serviced a man inside the yard , and more then likely that person was a member of the club.
It therefore is entirely possible, that whilst she was composing herself at the entrance to the yard, another man BS, approached, who attempted to entice her away , when she was reluctant he cut up rough and threw her down .
He noticed Schwartz , and shouted out Lipski, not as a insult to him, bit a reference to Stride being a ''Jew lover''.
Schwartz's Pipe man may not have even existed , if one takes the view that as Schwartz had already crossed the road to avoid the confrontation, it might reflect on his mental state. ie concerned for his own welfare, and used the additional man as an excuse to as to why he fled the scene.
So who killed Liz Stride, and was he our Jack?
I would suggest Broad shouldered did exactly that, when Liz attempted to seek refuge heading towards the club door, he cut her throat and made his escape, and he was not Jack the Ripper, simply a drunken man who took offence to being rejected.
Jack was about to continue his work with Eddowes. some 45 minutes later.
Just a thought.
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
My take on this , is somewhat different, I suggest that Stride had already serviced a man inside the yard , and more then likely that person was a member of the club.
It therefore is entirely possible, that whilst she was composing herself at the entrance to the yard, another man BS, approached, who attempted to entice her away , when she was reluctant he cut up rough and threw her down .
He noticed Schwartz , and shouted out Lipski, not as a insult to him, but a reference to Stride being a ''Jew lover''.
Schwartz's Pipe man may not have even existed , if one takes the view that as Schwartz had already crossed the road to avoid the confrontation, it might reflect on his mental state. i,e concerned for his own welfare, and used the additional man as an excuse to as to why he fled the scene.
So who killed Liz Stride, and was he our Jack?
I would suggest Broad shouldered did exactly that, when Liz attempted to seek refuge heading towards the club door, he cut her throat and made his escape, and he was not Jack the Ripper, simply a drunken man who took offence to being rejected.
Jack was about to continue his work with Eddowes. some 45 minutes later.
Just a thought.
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Sorry this time I am guilty of double posting.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

couldn't resist

[QUOTE=Abby Normal;259521]Ive said this before but I will repeat: Why would the club members come up with such a convoluted ...
Uh, anarchy? Strange motivation for anarchists, but...

[Phil Carter]

On the other hand, if Schwartz had seen the Seven Dwarfs passing out of Dutfields Yard everybody would want to know their descriptions, how many had knives, which way they went, which ones ate the grapes.....

Hello Jon,

That reminds me..

On my way to St Ives
I met a man with seven wives
Each wife had seven sacks
Each sack had seven cats
Each cat had seven kits
How many were going to St Ives?

I could easily make up one for Jack the Ripper etc..lol


Phil

[lynn cates]

location, location, location

Hello Richard.

"I would suggest Broad shouldered did exactly that, when Liz attempted to seek refuge heading towards the club door, he cut her throat and made his escape"

OK. But why is Liz dead in the yard, but not at the door?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

solo uno

Hello Phil. Answer: one. (Heard that as a wee lad.)

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

Observer & Mike,

Why do you have that perception of Mortimer? She said she was standing at her door "nearly the whole time". She didn't say periodically, she didn't say she was baking a pie and she didn't say she was busy swatting flies!

She follows that up by saying she heard commotion outside. Then she says "there was certainly no noise made" when talking about Liz being murdered. If she could be so sure no noise was made then it must be because she would have heard it. In other words, she knows how sound travelled and obviously feels she has great hearing. So great in fact she heard what she said was a policeman's heavy stomp. She heard this from inside her house so even if she was in her house she would have heard Liz scream unless Liz's scream was whispered!

The problem I have with Mortimer is she didn't testify at the inquest. Was she ignored she didn't see Liz or hear BS Man abusing her? Here again, I'd ask the same question as before...

Cheers
DRoy

Hi DRoy

Perhaps the fact that Mrs M did not appear at the inquest tells us that the police themselves were not convinced that she stood at her door for the full half hour 12:30 1:00 a.m. I presume she was questioned by the police on Sunday 1st Oct.

The screams. Someone has already pointed out it's not possible to scream "not very loudly". Isn't it more likely that for some reason Liz Stride merely cried out "not very loudly"? Hence Mrs M did not hear her cries, lets not forget the fact that no one actually heard anything.

What could the reason be for this suppressed cry?

Blind fear could be one reason. Liz Stride would not be the first person to choke so to speak whilst being the victim of violence.

It's possible that one of the club members realised that she was up to no good and ejected her from the entrance to the yard, lets not forget that Schwartz said the man he saw assaulting Stride pulled the woman into the street. Stride realising that she was in the wrong cried out not very loudly. Had she been warned on other occasions by club members not to hang around their premises? If this is the reason, I can't see any member guilty of this act relating the incident to the police considering Liz Stride was found dead on their premises 15 minutes later. Of course the reference to Lipski is a problem in this scenario.

Could Liz Stride have propositioned BS man and Pipeman as they passed her standing in the entrance to Dutfields Yard? Both had had a drink, and BS man takes exception to being propositioned, and throws her into the street in disgust. As Schwartz passes he thinking Schwartz is about to aid Liz Stride and abuses him with name of Lipski. Again Liz Stride would not want to draw attention to herself, and merely cries out not very loudly.

Of course the above scenarios call for Jack to be waiting in ther wings so to speak. He could well have been the man seen with Stride earlier in the evening, deciding it imprudent to kill Stride at that point, due to the fact that he had been sighted by PC Smith.

Regards

Observer

[Observer]

Not forgetting Joseph Lave standing on the pavement from 12:30-12:40, and Morris Eagle who tried the front door at 12:40.
Even if inside for a brief moment, if she can normally hear footsteps outside how come she missed the rumble of iron rims across cobblestones and the clip-clop of hooves coming passed her front window?

Mrs Mortimer may have heard the commotion after the body was discovered but she cannot have been standing on her doorstep for any appreciable length of time.

.

Quite true

Regards

Observer

[DRoy]

Observer,

Mortimer didn't testify and neither did Schwartz. It seems you have no problem accepting his story(?). I've already said it, if Schwartz was believed by the police which it seems he was, and he claims to have witnessed something when Mortimer witnessed nothing, that is why people appreciate him and not her.

Instead of repeating myself, please reread my last post where I talk about Mortimer's hearing.

Does anyone see Schwartz? Nope. BS Man? Nope. Pipeman? Nope. The only person that can vouch for Schwartz's story is Schwartz himself.

Cheers
DRoy

[c.d.]

What reason would Schwartz have to lie? I much prefer to believe that he honestly related what he THOUGHT he saw which was then FILTERED through an interpreter. The whole made up story thing in order to deflect suspicion away from the club is just too complicated for me.

I started a thread some time ago entitled "A Modern Day B.S. Man/Liz Encounter. Anybody witnessing what I saw who did not speak English would have come away with a completely different interpretation of what took place.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

dum spiro, spero

Hello CD. I honestly hope you are correct. If Schwartz is truthful, then BS killed Liz. End of the "Jack" non-sense.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

Ah, if it were only that simple. The BS man as Liz's killer has a ton of red flags (for me, anyway) not the least of which is the old cachous problem. Again, if Liz had them in her hand and caught herself with her hands in order to break her fall (which is natural) why didn't they they scatter on the ground since they were wrapped in tissue? The obvious answer would be that she didn't have them in her hand at the time. So are we to believe that after being the victim of a brutal assault and seeing the BS man threaten Schwartz she calmly went off with him and decided this would be a good time to freshen her breath at which point she took out the cachous?

I think the BS man was just a drunk who hassled her a bit and then went on his way. Liz then took out the cachous because she was with a client and I think that client was Jack.

c.d.