Where is Liz Stride?

[Cogidubnus]

Interesting fact found from online translator
The polish word for nosey sounds like Lipski although it is spelt wścibski.

Now that Pat, is indeed very interesting...so it could be Lipski, Lizzie, or nosey...two of the three being threats...

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Then it must be Cadosh.

Thanks Mike

Incidentally, I really love that...surely one of the snappiest comments ever...thanks DVV!

All the best

Dave

[Paddy]

Thanks Dave,
There was also a letter dated 1st November 88 to (I assume) Charles Warren From F.G. Abberline saying more or less exactly the same information, although that doesn't mention an inquest. Abberline explains also that he questioned Schwartz quite thoroughly.
There was a copy of the New York Herald and letters as to how they got hold of the story.... And a few letters about Packer. Nothing that I have not read about before.
There are all the other murders and I have to go through them yet. Some of the writing is so hard to read so I might take a bit of time as I will have to cross reference them with Evans and Skinners Sourcebook and this website.

Interesting fact found from online translator
The polish word for nosey sounds like Lipski although it is spelt wścibski.

Pat.....................

[C. F. Leon]

Thanks for the map, drstrange, it's quite what I was needing to understand the situation.

One thing that the map shows that I had not caught previously is that much of what was happening seems to be all on the same side of the street, not to mention in a much more restricted area than I had believed. I now can understand why Ms Mortimer seems to have missed so much that happened- the earlier incidents were on the far side of the club with what appears to be considerable noise coming from such. Also, from his path Schwartz could have been attending the meeting. It's interesting that Packer never mentioned either the Schwartz/BS/Pipeman incident (in whatever form it actually occured) or the apparently related commotion mentioned by some attendees of the club- his shop was right there where it seems to have happened. Too bad Schwartz was never given an indentity parade of club attendees- it might have turned up a lead if either BS or Pipeman had been there. Of course, if IS had been at the club, it's a moot point. (But if he had been there, wouldn't have one of the other members have been translating for him?)

This is probably material for another thread, but I'm guessing that if Pipeman actually was coming from the pub (and if the pub was closed, he probably was an employee or at least known to the staff), the investigation probably identified him, which is why he was not suspected later.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Pat

It's dated 5th November, and worded just very slightly differently to the memo eventually sent on the 6th November, so I'd guess it's a first draft of the same memo to the Secretary of State.

In case you haven't currently a copy of the sourcebook to hand I'll quote it:-

4 Whitehall Place, SW
6th November 1888

Sir,
With reference to your letter of the 29th ulto. I have to acquaint you, for the information of the Secretary of State, that the opinion arrived at upon the evidence given by Schwartz at the Inquest in Elizabeth Stride's case is that the name "Lipski", which he alleges was used by a man whom he saw assaulting the woman in Berners Street on the night of the murder, was not addressed to the supposed accomplice but to Schwartz himself. It appears that since the Lipski case it has come to be used as an epiphet in addressing or speaking of Jews.

With regard to the latter portion of your letter I have to state that searching enquiries were made by an officer in Aberdeen Place, St John's Wood, the last known address of the insane medical student named "John Sanders", but the only information that could be obtained was that a lady named Sanders did reside with her son at No. 20, but left that address to go abroad about two years ago.

I am,
Sir,
Your most obedient Servant,
C.Warren

So I think it's something we've seen before...and which has been dismissed by many readers as erroneous...it does have to be said it's not (as far as I know) been mentioned in any of the newspaper accounts, so maybe they're right and Warren was mistaken....

Nice work though...any other interesting bits?

All the best

Dave

[Paddy]

One letter there might be more

Good luck with reading this. I gave up towards the bottom......
It is a draft however.....will check the others as I am sure I saw another...

[Paddy]

Schwartz's evidence

I will check it out now. Have to go through them so might be a little while.
back in a bit...
Pat

[Cogidubnus]

What was clear was that Schwartz's statement was read at the inquest.

Hi Pat

Well this looks like something of a revelation...Hope you don't mind me asking, but when you say it's clear, how so? Does it actually say so, or do the file references suggest it?

The reason I ask is, we've heard before about an allegedly "erroneous" reference to Schwartz's evidence being given at the inquest...in Sir Charles Warren's memo dated 6th November 1888...this is quoted in the sourcebook (Page 151 in my edition) and listed in the references as MEPO ref HO 144/221/A49301C. ff.200-01

Or perhaps this is something different?

All the best

Dave

[Paddy]

To C F

Hi, CF
What is also of interest is that Aaron Kosminskis brother Woolf (and highly likely Aaron himself) lived in the house between the blue and the orange in 1882.
(Chris Phillips found this quite by chance when we were doing "New Light on Aaron Kosminski" for RIP 128.)

Mike
It was a complete file of letters from police regarding the murders (MEPO 3/140). It turned out to be about 1-2 hundred images They sent me a disc and charged £10. Bargain ! I have not read all yet but haven't found anything new as yet. What was clear was that Schwartz's statement was read at the inquest.

I can remember Berner street as narrow and a bit gloomy looking, as I went along Commercial Road in the early 60s.

Pat

[drstrange169]

[ATTACH]15318[/ATTACH]

Red - Nelson beer house
Grey - Packer
Yellow - the yard
Blue- Club
Orange - Mortimer

As to Pipe/Knifeman that is a hotly contested issue, best to read the reports and decide for yourself.

[C. F. Leon]

Hello C.F.

If you click on "Berner Street" in the photo archive section, we'll find a good map. Phil's photo is available, in all it's two page spread glory, in his book.

Thanks for the reply, drstrange.

I did see the map in the Photo section (ironic, since mention is made in one of the podcasts as to the drawing labeled "photo of knife" in one of the letters), but without any sort of reference points it's kind of useless to find locations. I assume that the "Stables" near the top of the map (to the right of the "E" in "Berner St") is Dutfield's Yard, but how did the International Working etc lie in relation? Was it north or south? Where was Packer's shop? Where was Pipeman's pub? Ms Mortimer's doorway? How did PC Smith's beat go? Which way did Schwartz run? Where was the railway arch (again, one of the podcasts mention there were TWO)? Do we know which direction Louis 'Dimshitz' came from? It's a great map for the general area (I assume it's from a Gould's Map) but a more localized detailed map for the area concerned is really needed (and actually for ALL of the murder locations- I know there is one for Mitre square).

As for the photo, I know it's in Phil's book but even if I had a copy, all of my books are in storage and I can't use them for reference. Of course it's right as the discoverer/owner to use, but my point is that I've never seen it in ANY form, and it's quite confusing listening to people talk about it and not having a copy to know what they are talking about. Even a thumbnail would be helpful.

[drstrange169]

Hello C.F.

If you click on "Berner Street" in the photo archive section, we'll find a good map. Phil's photo is available, in all it's two page spread glory, in his book.

[C. F. Leon]

I'm having difficulty getting the layout of Berner St straight, and the photos available aren't helping. Could someone please either post or direct to a map (I believe there's one in Sugden, but my books are all packed up in storage currently) showing how locations are in relation to each other? Like where was Ms Mortimer's door in relation to Dutfield's yard or the pub that Pipeman came from or where was PC Smith? Where was Packer's shop or the assault that Schwartz saw? What about the "railway arch"? (one of the podcasts said there were TWO) Do we know where Schwartz was coming from (someone suggested that he was attending the meeting- is this likely?) and his path through the area?

On a sideline to this, conecerning the Dutfield's Yard photo found by Phil. I fully understand his wish to keep his rights to the photo, but is it really necessary to keep it underwraps at this distance? I've never even seen a thumbnail of the picture, and it's hard to follow people talking about it when it's not available.

[DVV]

It seems that all the murders had toilets very near the scenes.
Mike

Then it must be Cadosh.

Thanks Mike

[The Good Michael]

Does anybody know if there was an outside toilet in Dutfields yard and did the members of the club use it?
I was just thinking if people were drinking that night wouldnt there have been a lot more traffic in the yard?
Pat........

yes there was. There were actually two privies. I believe one of them was locked...there was also a rubbish depression of some sort in the ground. It seems that all the murders had toilets very near the scenes.

Mike