6d. Did Liz spend it, or die for it?

[The Good Michael]

I believe that any blood remaining in a body after the heart stops tends to pool within the body. Possibly, I suppose, some from the wound might trickle out due to gravity, but not for long I would think.

Liquid seeks its own level.

Mike

[c.d.]

The problem here is that Jack could have been scared off and fled by something that we will never know long before Demschutz arrived. So trying to determine whether Jack had 20 minutes or 20 seconds to do his thing before the pony cart arrived is somewhat of a moot point.

c.d.

[curious4]

Interruption

Hello cd,

Good point, but everyone in and around the yard was questioned at length about anything untoward they may have noticed from at least 12.30 onwards, so what could have scared Jack off other than Diemschutz is a puzzle. He didn't lack nerve in the other cases seemingly.

Best wishes,
C4

[c.d.]

Counting Tabram, there were three murders in a relatively short time prior to Jack ever meeting up with Liz. The murders were being played up in the papers and were being talked about. Single men on the street were being given a second look. It is not unreasonable that Jack overheard pub talk about how the Ripper would soon be caught and hanged. Maybe somebody where he worked talked of being questioned by the police or maybe even Jack himself had been stopped and questioned. So I can see Jack coming into this current situation with a good deal of paranoia. As discussed previously, the prior locations didn't lend themselves to suddenly being confronted by several able bodied men all of whom were close by in the club. Perhaps this killing didn't go as smoothly as before. Perhaps Liz cried out when she was cut. Could somebody in the club have heard that? Did he hear the sound of a door? Could somebody in the club be coming out for a breath of fresh air? Did the singing suddenly just get louder catching his attention? The list goes on and on.

It's funny that a number of people who dismiss out of hand the whole idea of a paranoid Jack fleeing the scene have no problem embracing an elaborate plot whereby the club members hastily push Schwartz onto the stage in a desperate attempt to deflect suspicion away from the club. Why in the world would they do such a thing? You guessed it. Good ole' paranioa. It can happen to the best of 'em. Just not Jack though apparently.

c.d.

[curious4]

Paranoia

Hello again c.d.,

I would perhaps agree with you more if Jack hadn't killed Kate shortly afterwards, in a square checked regularly and often by the police, with people living there and a watchman with his door open. Doesn't sound as though he was panicked to me. And I don't really understand your reference to Schwarz. Was he pushed forward by the club? Did he even have any connection to the club? Liz couldn't have cried out after the cut and if she was first choked into unconsciousness, couldn't have cried out before it.

All good wishes,
C4

[c.d.]

Hello Curious,

One's level of paranoia doesn't have to remain constant. It can wax and wane. The interim between murders could have given him time to calm down and collect himself. On the other hand, he might have felt so frustrated at not being able to mutilate Liz that it overrode any paranoia or thoughts of self preservation when he went after Liz.

You certainly see the same thing with attempted abductions of young school girls. The news will report a man attempting to grab a young girl on her way to school only to run off after she screams or someone else appears on the scene. The news then reports that another attempt was made on a young girl later that same day.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Curious,

Several board members have argued that Schwartz was associated with the club and that club members provided him with a story in order to deflect suspicion away from the club.

With regard to Liz possibly screaming, we don't know enough of the details surrounding her death to rule out the possibility. Could she have managed to scream right before she was choked? We simply don't know.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Several board members have argued that Schwartz was associated with the club and that club members provided him with a story in order to deflect suspicion away from the club.

Hmm.... Oh, what a tangled web we weave....

.

[lynn cates]

mutilation wish

Hello CD.

"The problem here is that Jack could have been scared off and fled by something that we will never know long before Demschutz arrived."

Perhaps someone through the side door. But my point is that there is no evidence for such. And the only reason to suppose it is that one is already convinced that the one who killed her wished to mutilate her.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

missus est

Hello (again) CD.

"It's funny that a number of people who dismiss out of hand the whole idea of a paranoid Jack fleeing the scene . . ."

I don't dismiss it out of hand--merely find no reason to believe it.

Likewise, I do not dismiss her killer being an extra-terrestrial. But again, no evidence to accept.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

Common things are common. Isn't that what doctors alway say? We have an abundance of evidence that all types of criminal activity did not reach fruition because the perpetrator was interrupted and chose to flee rather than risk being caught. This includes attempted murder, attempted rape, attempted robbery, attempted car jackings etc. and we can also throw serial murderers into the mix as well.

I, Caz and others have provided plausible scenarios where an interruption could have occurred without leaving evidence that it did in fact take place.

So it boils down to how you want to approach the case. If you demand actual physical evidence that's fine. For me, the possibility and the probability that he was interrupted factors into how I look at the case. I simply can't rule that out because it is fact quite common.

c.d.

[The Good Michael]

I, Caz and others have provided plausible scenarios where an interruption could have occurred without leaving evidence that it did in fact take place.

In fact C.D, an interruption would most probably leave no evidence. We do have a corpse that was still very warm, a busy club, and Diemschitz' arrival possibly seconds after the murder and at the latest, a few minutes.

Mike

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

That's true but we are not forced to hang our hat on Diemschutz and his pony cart. We are sitting in the comfort of our homes some 125 years later trying to envision some significant event that might have triggered Jack's instinct to flee. But Jack is in the dark, next to a club filled with able bodied men with adrenaline flowing throughout his body. Even the smallest thing out of the ordinary could have been magnified in his mind.

c.d.

[curious4]

Interruption

Hello,

I think it would have taken something major to interrupt Jack. He seemed to enjoy the risks he took. There were many much safer spots within the warrens of Whitechapel where he could have killed, but he seemed to choose places where the risk of being caught was high, as if that was part of the excitement of what he did. I think he was confident in his ability to talk himself out of any tricky situation he found himself in.

Best wishes,
C4

[curious]

I think he was confident in his ability to talk himself out of any tricky situation he found himself in.

Best wishes,
C4

Just wondering if, off the top of your head, you can think of a suspect(s) noted for that?

curious