6d. Did Liz spend it, or die for it?

[curious4]

Hello namesake,
See my follow-up. Although one of the doctors estimated that it would have taken one to two minutes for her to bleed to death.

Cheers,
C4

[curious4]

Sources

Dr Blackwell: "Deceased would take about a minute and a half to bleed to death", Jack the Ripper Source Book by Evans and Skinner, Details of the resumed inquest, The Times, 3rd October 1888.

Dr Phillips: "Roughly estimating it I should say there was an unusual flow of blood considering the stature and nourishment of the body." Jack the Ripper Source book by Evans and Skinner, The Times, 4th October 1888

C4

[lynn cates]

trickle down theory

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

Although one cannot spurt with the heart stopped, you should be trickling for a good bit.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

bare possibility

Hello Velma. Thanks.

Well, just a bare possibility. (Um, forgive the pun.)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

health

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks

Well, I can't rule that out. Also, she seemed to be well fed and was in fairly good health, compared to Polly and Annie.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Trickler

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

Although one cannot spurt with the heart stopped, you should be trickling for a good bit.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

With my knowledge of the Swedish I feel sure Liz was more of a trickler than a spurter.

Best wishes,
Gwyneth

[Wickerman]

This has just occured to me. One of the doctors remarked that Liz had lost more blood than he would have expected for her height and size ...... What if Liz suffered from haemophilia type C?

Has it never occured to anyone that dark grapes (red/black) contain salicylates which inhibit the ability of blood to clot?, also...

More recent studies have shown that the proanthcyanadins and polyphenols in the dark pigment of the purple grapes are potent antioxidants that prevent premature blood clotting.

http://www.healthedcorp.com/articles/Foods_that_Naturally_Thin_the_Blood.pdf

I only mention this because my wife is on bloodthinners so we tend to read up on this subject.

.

[curious4]

Grapes

Hello Wickerman,

No, I didn't know that. Very interesting, blood disease or not. I do have to admit to a tendency to believe in the grapes. Those fruit stains must have come from somewhere.

Best wishes,
C4

[curious]

Hello namesake,
See my follow-up. Although one of the doctors estimated that it would have taken one to two minutes for her to bleed to death.

Cheers,
C4

would her blood not have continued to ooze even after death? are we talking about two entirely different things here?

curious

[curious4]

Blood

Hello Curious,

As far as I know blood stops flowing when the heart stops. Nothing to pump it round.

Best wishes,
C4

[Observer]

Hi Curious

I believe the yard sloped very very slightly away from Liz Stride's body towards the club back door, the blood ran in that diection. Dr Philips used the term "stream" to describe the initial spray of blood, so an horrific wound. As the heart stopped beating it's my opinion that as Liz Stride lay on a slight incline, it would have been enough for gravity to have taken over, and drawn the blood out. It's possible that blood oozed from the wound for some time after the initial cut.

Regards

Observer

[curious]

Hi Curious

I believe the yard sloped very very slightly away from Liz Stride's body towards the club back door, the blood ran in that diection. Dr Philips used the term "stream" to describe the initial spray of blood, so an horrific wound. As the heart stopped beating it's my opinion that as Liz Stride lay on a slight incline, it would have been enough for gravity to have taken over, and drawn the blood out. It's possible that blood oozed from the wound for some time after the initial cut.

Regards

Observer

Hi, Observer,

Thanks,

I agree that blood might continue to drain from the body until it clotted at the wound --

Perhaps that has been the problem with some of the other discussions on this issue -- people using about the same words, or very nearly the same words, to mean different things . . .

That's been a point of hot debate concerning the Nichols case.

Need to ponder for awhile.

curious

[Observer]

Yes indeed. Those with an agenda being the worse culprits of course.

Regards

Observer

[curious4]

Clotting

Hello Curious and all,

What I meant was this. (Leaning heavily on a novel by Dorothy Sayers, in which the victim has his throat cut). When he is found, his blood is in a liquid state, so it is assumed that he has just been murdered. Turns out that he has haemophilia, blood doesn't clot, his throat had been cut half an hour earlier.

If one interprets the doctor's comment to mean that to his eye there was more blood than expected, it could possibly be because Liz had a clotting problem and, as the blood stayed liquid for longer, appeared to be more in volume. If this were to be the case, she could have had her throat cut say 15 minutes earlier (12.45ish) and that might point away from Jack as he would have have had ample time to do his thing. Although I would lean more towards Liz having her throat cut just before Diemschutz turned into the yard and that the culprit was therefore Jack disturbed.

All this, of course, is pure speculation. I am not sure that the man who threw Liz to the ground was her killer. He was drunk, for one thing and I don't see Jack as drunk. A drunk man is likely to shout an insult at someone he thinks is staring at him. Perhaps he saw Liz standing at the gates, assumed she was soliciting and was angry about being turned down. Also it doesn't fit with the doctor's idea of how she was killed, scarf pulled back first to choke her and throat cut either in falling or while unconscious on the ground.

Kidney was an obvious suspect, so he must have had a very good alibi. Also, in passing, the round ended chandler's knife was found at 12.30 - that is, before Liz was killed.

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

Blood trickle

Hi Curious

I believe the yard sloped very very slightly away from Liz Stride's body towards the club back door, the blood ran in that diection. Dr Philips used the term "stream" to describe the initial spray of blood, so an horrific wound. As the heart stopped beating it's my opinion that as Liz Stride lay on a slight incline, it would have been enough for gravity to have taken over, and drawn the blood out. It's possible that blood oozed from the wound for some time after the initial cut.

Regards

Observer

Hello Observer,

I believe that any blood remaining in a body after the heart stops tends to pool within the body. Possibly, I suppose, some from the wound might trickle out due to gravity, but not for long I would think.

Best wishes,
C4