6d. Did Liz spend it, or die for it?

[Jon Guy]

J Best

"It was raining very fast, and they did not appear willing to go out. He was hugging her and kissing her, and as he seemed a respectably dressed man, we were rather astonished at the way he was going on with the woman,who was poorly dressed"

Thank you, Observer.

Stride went out that night wearing the same clothes that she wore whilst cleaning up after the white wash guys.

[Observer]

Hi observer
Smith described a man with a peaked cap. A deerstalker. Close enough in my book. IMHO I think stride was turning down a bit of business that night. Which perhaps is why she ended up with only a cut throat and not a ripped out abdomen.

Hi Abby

With the best will in the world I can't bring myself to accept that Marshal and Smith were describing the same man. Short cut away coat, as opposed to an overcoat, middle aged clerkly appearance, as opposed to a young man of 28. Smith described a man with a deerstalker hat, peak fore and aft, Marshall a peaked cap single peak, something a sailor might wear. Also Smith's man carried a newspaper parcel.

It's true Smith's sighting was later than Marshal's, so if they are describing the same man he could have acquired the parcel sometime after Marshall had spotted them. All in all though, I believe Liz Stride was in the company of more than one man leading up to her eventual murder

Regards

Observer

[Observer]

Oh my gosh! if that's the back cover copy, I really wanna read that book!

Hi Rivkah

Haha quite.

The book is available, it's titled
"The life and times of an East End unfortunate
The fourth victim of Jack The Ripper"

Regards

Observer

[Observer]

Thank you, Observer.

Stride went out that night wearing the same clothes that she wore whilst cleaning up after the white wash guys.

Haha absolutely. What she got up to later in the night can not be described as whiter than white though

Regards

Observer

[Jon Guy]

What she got up to later in the night can not be described as whiter than white though

You mean by wasting police time and money by pretending to be dead cos Jack the Ripper didn`t exist?

[caz]

Cripes, I'm not sure I'd even go that far. He just thought that his jollies were more important than her life. If her took her soliciting, or apparent soliciting into account at all, it probably was just 1) there was no man to punch him for propositioning the woman he was with; 2) he had an easy opening line; 3) she'd go into the shadows with him; 4) if her financial situation was that dire, she probably didn't have family who were going to press the police to find her killer.

I don't think the morality of prostitution, or fornication, or whatever, entered into it.

If he were killing prostitutes to make a moral point, I think he would execute them, not mutilate them, and he would pick pros (women who worked in brothels, or who had regular clientele, and were known and immediately recognizable as representatives of their profession), not occasional prostitutes, about whom there would be some debate, which apparently there was even at the time, regarding at least Eddowes.

Hi Rivkah,

Oh I'm with you on this one, almost all the way. I don't think Stride's killer, if he was the ripper, gave two hoots about her morals or lack thereof. But it is possible that part of the attraction of picking on women he presumed to be street walkers (apart from their willingness to go off with strange men into dark places) was that he could use his perception of their morals as self-justification for what he did to them. It's like when men say a girl is asking to be molested if she wears a skirt that shows a bit of knee.

When I wrote that whoever killed her judged that she deserved her fate I meant it in the more basic sense that she was considered to be there for the taking - her silly fault for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. But in actual fact, that would apply more to the ripper than to any other killer. Anyone else would presumably have had a much more Stride-specific motive, and one that could come full circle back to her supposed behaviour at the time. So while the ripper probably wouldn't have cared who she was or why she was really there, a one-off killer who knew her personally would have been a different kettle of fish.

Love,

Caz
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[caz]

To Caz, your attempts at "elevating" Liz Stride seem to begin with either an assumption by the Ripper or with Liz actually soliciting,...which you have suggested on numerous occasions... of course supported by something someone that happened in some serial killer episode decades later .... my issue is that Liz Stride had no business having her life lumped into this Ripper business in the first place, and she didnt deserve to have her life up for scrutiny and judgement 125 years later. Ive pointed out how nice she appears to have been dressed and accessorized, that she appears as if ready for a social encounter with someone special, or a special occasion.

If you havent noticed Ive always defended Liz Strides morality and pointed out her work history up to and including that last day as a way of countering such suggestions. I believe that would be considered attempting to "elevate" Liz, not what you suggest, without proof, about her and the others.

Rivkah was right, Mike, you missed my point - by about a mile in fact.

I am not the one attempting to elevate Stride at the expense of her unfortunate sisters, and how many more times do I have to repeat that I am not 'assuming' she was either killed by the ripper or soliciting when attacked. I am merely allowing for both possibilities while your mind is firmly shut against either.

Your attempts to 'defend' Stride's morality, and to show how 'nice' she looked, and how she had been waiting for a special man, and didn't deserve to be judged etc etc, are quite stomach-churningly inappropriate. Nobody but you is judging any of the victims, either for who they were, where they were, or what they might have been doing when their killer struck. You are the one making moral comparisons between them, and judging that Stride needs defending on that score, while presumably you think the others all looked horrible and took no care over their appearance; that they were just waiting for the next dirty, smelly docker to come along and cough up their doss money; and that they therefore deserved to have their lives raked over for the next 125 years, while the lovely, fragrant, "innocent Liz" did not.

Someone pass me the sick bag.

Love,

Caz
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[caz]

Accounts suggest these streets were not as empty as some tend to believe. Accosting a prospective victim and trying to get her into a quiet spot where he might get 10-15 minutes uninterrupted time with her could be a challenge in these overcrowded backstreets.

It is not the same as finding a quiet corner to engage in a 'quickie', because anyone stumbling on them engaged in sex, or hearing them in the dark, will make themselves scarce trying to look the other way. Not so if someone stumbles on a murder in progress, no-one is going to ignore that.

The killer may have been out every night, or several nights a week, and not always with murder in mind. We cannot surely assume that every time he steps outside at night he is only considering murder?

Isn't it more likely that something triggers his need to kill, than assume he always kills when out, and he is only out at the end of the month, or beginning, or whatever?

I agree with this entirely, Jon. When the killer needed to do his thing, he also needed to make the most of possibly limited opportunities.

Which is why I think Stride would fit so well into the picture you paint for us here. We know Eddowes's killer was out that night with his knife, apparently in the mood to use it, and Stride could easily have been viewed as a prospective victim worth trying to accost and get to that quiet spot you mention - ie away from the club's premises, which were never likely to provide those 10-15 minutes of uninterrupted time, although they would have sufficed for that 'quickie'. Assuming Stride was not in the mood to play ball, what happened next makes sense.

Love,

Caz
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[Cogidubnus]

"It was raining very fast, and they did not appear willing to go out. He was hugging her and kissing her, and as he seemed a respectably dressed man, we were rather astonished at the way he was going on with the woman,who was poorly dressed"

It may seem a little obvious, but it's quite possible that one person's best dress, can still appear to be shabby or poor to another onlooker...just depends on your viewpoint...

For what it's worth everything about Liz Stride's behaviour that day suggests to me a fresh personal relationship for the sake of which she's (a) moved out her most precious possessions, (b) tried to present herself in her best and (c) turned down at least one punter...

In this I may be wrong...I simply don't know for sure...I'm not trying to romanticise the lady...but would point out that East End prostitutes, whether willing full-timers or reluctant occasionals, were still normal human beings, with normal feelings, normal appetites, and normal lives to lead...something I think tends to get forgotten here at times...

Christ you'll have me preaching next!

All the best

Dave

[Jon Guy]

Hi Dave

It may seem a little obvious, but it's quite possible that one person's best dress, can still appear to be shabby or poor to another onlooker...just depends on your viewpoint...

Best and Gardner were both local labourers, so I imagine she must have been quite shabby if they described her as porly dressed.

For what it's worth everything about Liz Stride's behaviour that day suggests to me a fresh personal relationship for the sake of which she's (a) moved out her most precious possessions,...

She was pinching stuff back from Kidney, without his permission, as she had a key to the padlock he put on the door of his lodgings. If she gave anything to the Deputy of the lodging house Kidney may have claimed it back. I think it was only the velvet that she asked someone to look after, I don`t recall any other possessions.

(b) tried to present herself in her best ,...

She went out wearing the same clothes (her only clothes as far as I know)that she had worn whilst cleaning up after the white washing men earlier that day, and she asked if she could borrow a brush off a fellow lodger but he had mislaid the brush.

and (c) turned down at least one punter...

Perhaps she just didn`t like the look of him, he did turn out to be a tw#t after all.
Francis Coles` friend, Ellen Callana turned down the man in the Cheese cutter hat because she didn`t like the look of him, and he proceeded to throw her about a bit too. Funnily enough, Coles went with him instead and she was found dead within the hour.

In this I may be wrong...I simply don't know for sure...I'm not trying to romanticise the lady...but would point out that East End prostitutes, whether willing full-timers or reluctant occasionals, were still normal human beings, with normal feelings, normal appetites, and normal lives to lead...something I think tends to get forgotten here at times......

I don`t think it is forgotten, Dave. But in this instance Stride, who has prior, was apparently seen with a number of different men, and was hanging around on her own after midnight. As you say, she had a life to lead and soliciting was one of the few avenues open to her to raise a few pennies.

[lynn cates]

hymnal

Hello Jon.

"I think it was only the velvet that she asked someone to look after, I don`t recall any other possessions."

If I recall properly, she had another person look after her hymnal.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

If I recall properly, she had another person look after her hymnal.

Yes, you`re correct, Lynn.
Again, this Swedish bible was another item she had taken from Kidney`s padlocked room, and asked someone other than the Deputy Keeper to look after, as was the norm . I believe to stop Kidney reclaiming.

[lynn cates]

absent

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Makes one wonder why she is giving these items for keeping. Perhaps she planned to be absent awhile?

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn


She was certainly planning on been absent from the lodging house on Sat night. She had to leave them with someone Lynn. Unless she was going to hang around Berner St with her bit of velvet and Swedish bible.

The norm was to give these sorts of things to the Deputy. However, if she was nicking them back off Kidney, he would know exactly where to retrieve them, or at least confirm that Stride had these items.

As it stood, all he had to do was ask the Deputy if she had Strides velvet and bible to confirm she had taken them from him behind his back.

[caz]

For what it's worth everything about Liz Stride's behaviour that day suggests to me a fresh personal relationship for the sake of which she's (a) moved out her most precious possessions, (b) tried to present herself in her best and (c) turned down at least one punter...

Hi Dave,

You may be right, but it wouldn't make a jot of difference either way, assuming her killer found her hanging round the club and had his own reasons for cutting her throat. Her appearance and behaviour earlier in the day can't help us with who he was, why he attacked her, or whether they had ever seen one another before.

In this I may be wrong...I simply don't know for sure...I'm not trying to romanticise the lady...but would point out that East End prostitutes, whether willing full-timers or reluctant occasionals, were still normal human beings, with normal feelings, normal appetites, and normal lives to lead...something I think tends to get forgotten here at times...

I don't think most of us do forget any of that, Dave. It's precisely what drives me mad when Stride is singled out - on very little evidence, and to no good purpose - as having had better morals than other victims, more pride in her appearance and so on, and therefore somehow more deserving of pity for her untimely end. If the ripper did get her, it wouldn't change who she was as a human being, and every victim deserves our pity equally, no matter who killed them or why.

Love,

Caz
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