6d. Did Liz spend it, or die for it?

[curious]

Hello Velma.

"What if . . . she was just doing a night out?"

OK. But why on earth go to the Berner st club?

Cheers.
LC

Hi, Lynn,
I don't know. Maybe for the music. Would there have been other music around at that hour?

And I get that whatever she was doing that night will not change the fact that she was killed. But whatever it was she was doing might point more to motivation -- not that we can ever be sure at this date.

We've discussed that perhaps she was soliciting at the club, perhaps she was spying at the club, perhaps she was waiting for her date to come out -- nothing changes her being killed.

Just thinking, that's all.

Just wondering what she SHOULD have been doing. She had enough for her bed, so didn't have to work that evening, so what options did someone in her position have for spending a Saturday evening?

curious

[Wickerman]

When Liz had finished cleaning at around 5pm her and Ms Tanner went to the Queens Head, she went back to the lodging house with Tanner to get her cloak and bonnet before going out..."She went back with me to the lodging-house. At that time she had no bonnet or cloak on."

Hi Michael.
Yes I've been going over all those inquest reports to see if there's a more suitable interpretation of when she received that 6d.

The sequence appears to be that Stride cleaned two rooms on Sat. afternoon, then left the lodginghouse, was seen drinking in the Queens Head about 6:30 pm, there she met Liz Tanner, walked home with her and only after she met Tanner in the evening did she receive the payment of 6d.
That just seems a little unlikely to me.

I'm assuming that Stride would have been payed immediately after she finished cleaning the rooms, not several hours later.
Catherine Lane did see Stride while she was cleaning, and last saw her, reports vary, between 6:00-7:00 or 7:00-8:00, that night.

Stride left the lodginghouse twice, once after she finished cleaning, and then again after she handed over the piece of velvet.
Catherine Lane said she saw Stride with a 6d "before she left", but which time?
We are assuming she meant after she left the second time, but if she was speaking out of context again, as she did at the inquest, she may have meant "before she left" the first time. Which then would explain what happened to the 6d, she drank it at the Queens Head.
Thats pretty much what I'm looking at here.

Our conventional interpretation would have Stride offering to clean rooms when she already had money on her, which she must have done if she was drinking in the Queens Head before she met Elizabeth Tanner.
That seems less likely to me.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

neighbourhood

Hello Velma. Thanks.

If she knew there was music there, and she liked that genre, yes.

I think a good bit of my problem is, "What is she doing in that neighbourhood?"

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

I think a good bit of my problem is, "What is she doing in that neighbourhood?"

Cheers.
LC

But Lynn,
Except for MJK, isn't that the question with all of them? or at least the canonical ones?

curious

[RivkahChaya]

If she were doing charwork (housecleaning, in American) for Orthodox Jews, she wouldn't do it on a Saturday. No one does any work that isn't absolutely necessary on Shabbes in a Jewish house, whether the person is Jewish or not. However, she might be hired to clean on a Friday afternoon, because that is when Jews do the bulk of the week's cleaning, to have the house spiffed up for Shabbes. If she were hired as a Shabbes goy to light stoves (for heat, for the necessary reason that people not freeze to death), it makes sense that the same person they knew from doing char work, would be the one they'd hire to light the stove.

Also, I suppose, although I don't really know, that if a family were having a really big dinner with a lot of guests, they might hire a goy to help with serving, although bringing food to a table isn't forbidden work. Since Jews don't deal with money on Shabbes, and it's a mitzvah otherwise to pay people immediately for work done, gentiles who worked on Shabbes for Jews were generally paid in advance.

If the club were closed up after hours on Friday, it would be permissible to allow a gentile to come in to clean up, although I question the practicality of that when people mostly worked by natural light. Also, Liz did not seem to be preparing to go work cleaning up anywhere that evening.

[RivkahChaya]

But Lynn,
Except for MJK, isn't that the question with all of them? or at least the canonical ones?

curious

I think she meant "Jewish neighborhood," particularly on Shabbes. This one club might be open, but in general, everything will be closed by sundown.

Which is another question. Just how Jewish was this neighborhood? If all the nearby merchants were Jewish, then she didn't buy the cachous nearby, and had walked a while after buying them; in other words, she wasn't strolling aimlessly, but had a definite destination in mind.

[lynn cates]

exceptions

Hello Velma. Thanks.

"Except for MJK, isn't that the question with all of them? or at least the canonical ones?"

Well, no mystery about Polly and Annie. As always, they are easy to account for.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Ah!

Hello Rivkah.

"she wasn't strolling aimlessly, but had a definite destination in mind."

Now you're talking.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

I still didn't get an answer to my question -- as a woman and non-member would she have been allowed in the club to wait?

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Thanks.

Slight problem.

1. We don't know if/why he hassled her earlier.

2. We don't know if/why he hassled her.

3. We don't know if he existed.

4. We don't know if Schwartz were the BS (not broad shouldered) man.

Cheers.
LC

I just run 'em up the flag pole, Lynn. It's up to other people to decide if they want to salute.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

timing

Hello CD.

"I still didn't get an answer to my question -- as a woman and non-member would she have been allowed in the club to wait?"

It would be even better had she arrived for the speech concerning Jews and socialism.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

saluting the flag

Hello (again) CD. Thanks.

"I just run 'em up the flag pole, Lynn. It's up to other people to decide if they want to salute."

True enough. Of course, the colours must be displayed properly, else there is confusion and no salute.

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

Stride would not have been unfamiliar with the neighborhood. The lady from Tiger Bay appeared to know her well. And Stride had previously lived on Devonshire St. The whole area was infamous... being recently tamed somewhat by the arrival in that decade of Jewish immigrants around Fairclough, Berner and Batty Streets.

[Observer]

This is quite true.

Stride knew the area around Berner Street as well as any other in the East End. And lets face it, she didn't have far to walk from her base in Flower and Dean Street. It's half a mile to be precise, a seven minute walk. Non Ripper enthusiasts, who I've shown around the area, are surprised at how close the various locations are to each other. I'm certainly not surprised Liz Stride was where she was when she met her untimely end, and neither would the people who knew her I'd suspect.

This subject was discussed at length some years ago if I'm not mistaken.

Regards

Observer

[curious]

Well, no mystery about Polly and Annie. As always, they are easy to account for.

Cheers.
LC

Hi, Lynn,
I'm not so sure about Annie being that easy to account for.

She was too sick and out-of-sight too long to be positive, IMO.

Velma