6d. Did Liz spend it, or die for it?

[lynn cates]

H O

Hello Sluggo. Welcome to the boards.

I thought the Home Office had never offered a reward?

Cheers.
LC

PS, my best to Mr. Bill. (heh-heh)

[RivkahChaya]

You make a good point about the "unfortunates" but was Mary Kelly really someone who chose to prostitute herself? She had split with her partner and was many weeks in arrears with the rent. I'm not convinced that she saw herself as having any real choice at all.

I think what people are picking up on is that MJK seemed to have a different attitude toward prostitution than the others. She worked in a brothel once, it appears, and went to France with a man as a kept woman. Whether or not she actually enjoyed being a prostitute is one thing-- had she truly had a lot of choices, for example, had she had the sort of education that would have allowed her to be a shopkeeper, or had a talent, and could have been a church organist, or something, those might have been much more appealing, but I get the sense that she did not find prostitution morally objectionable, and an act of desperation, and would not give it up for any of the other jobs available to her, as they all tended to be back-breaking, and for the amount of work required, didn't pay as well, nor give her as much freedom.

It seems for her, prostitution was a job, like any other, and she didn't consider herself "fallen," nor accept that it had a heavy downside of being morally wrong.

That's very different from saying she liked it, but where Stride seemed to feel char work was an improvement, because it was legitimate, I don't think MJK would have taken the same view of it.

[Sluggo]

It appears you are only considering an official reward offered by the authorities. One of the earliest rewards announced in the press was from the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee:

"The Whitechapel Vigilance Committee has allowed its zeal to outrun its discretion. It has decided to offer a preliminary reward if £50 for the apprehension of the person or persons who committed the recent atrocities, and to increase the amount of the reward as funds come in!"

This was announced on 21st Sept. 1888 in the Evening News.
There were other privately sponsored rewards, I'm not sure of the dates for these. So Kate may have been referring to the one offered by the W.V.C.

Regards, Jon S.

P.S.
Here's the earlier one I was thinking about:
"Mr. S. Montagu, M.P., has assumed the functions of the Home Office. He has offered a reward of £100 for the capture of the murderer of Annie Chapman. It is well, however, to remember that Mr. Montagu represents the Whitechapel Division in Parliament. "
11 Sept. 1888, The Echo.

Thank you Jon.
I greatly appreciate the feed back. I am still working my way thru the Casebook. There is so much I have not gone thru as of yet.

Debb C (Sluggo)

[curious4]

"I've got sixpence, jolly jolly sixpence"

Hello All,

I am all for Liz buying cachous for her sixpence but not a buttonhole. How many ladies out there would buy themselves a buttonhole flower as a decoration when going out?

Best wishes,
C4

[curious]

Hello All,

I am all for Liz buying cachous for her sixpence but not a buttonhole. How many ladies out there would buy themselves a buttonhole flower as a decoration when going out?

Best wishes,
C4

Hi, C4,
I'm already on the record thinking exactly that. I don't know of any woman who would have purchased a flower for herself to wear.

However, something has occurred to me that I've never seen mentioned.

The debate is whether or not Stride had a date that night or was soliciting since she was seen in the company of what appears to be a few men.

What if the answer is "neither"?

We know she had been married and had lived with Michael Kidney for a few years.

We also know that she had earned enough money that night she could have had a bed and roof over her head.

What if . . . she was just doing a night out? Perhaps she did not have "running buddies" or they were all working or otherwise engaged that evening. I've gone places by myself just because I wanted to go and no one was free to go with me. And I've danced with whoever asked. I knew I wasn't going home with any of them, nor bearing their children. I was dancing.

Perhaps Stride would have been interested in a new man for a more permanent arrangement if she met someone? So she dressed up and took special care with her appearance and breath.

From the reports, it sounds as though she might have already known one or two of the men, perhaps enjoyed a conversation and few minutes in their company before moving on. We have reports of MJK having a drink somewhere with Daniel Barnett, so why could Stride not have done the same thing?

Why could she not have been just enjoying an evening out -- talking to people and listening to music?

No agenda, just enjoying an evening when she had enough money in her pocket for her bed and could relax?

curious

[Wickerman]

Also, there can't have been too many places in that part of town, at that hour of the night, where anyone could buy a buttonhole - a stall on Whitechapel High Street maybe?
Charles Preston said she had no flower in her breast when he last saw her about 7:00 pm, but John Gardner said she was wearing it at 11:00 pm at the Bricklayer's Arms.
Where was she for four hours?

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Here's the thing about the 6d that I am not so sure about.

Elizabeth Tanner said Stride cleaned two rooms for her "Saturday afternoon", and that she had given Stride 6d for doing this.
Tanner also tells us she met Stride about 6:00-6:30 pm in the Queens Head drinking, they walked back to the lodging-house together.

My question is, did Stride spend the 6d on drink at the Queens Head?

Here's where the confusion sets in.

Tanner says she left Stride in the kitchen after they returned, ie, about 7:00 pm?, and Stride was not wearing a cloak or bonnet at that time.
But, Catherine Lane says she also met Stride in the kitchen, about the same time, between 6:00-7:00 pm, and Stride was wearing her cloak and bonnet.

Surly there is a discrepancy in the times given here.

Although Lane claims to have been shown the 6d by Stride, this was before Stride had been out drinking (Lane could not tell she had been drinking), which must also mean there is some confusion here.

I think the simplest solution is that Stride cleaned two rooms on Saturday afternoon, she was paid sixpence by Tanner, she went out drinking about 6:00 ish, and spent it at the Queens Head.

Catherine Lane's answers are a little confused, as is apparent by this exchange:

The Coroner-Where did you see her on Saturday?

Lane: In the deputy's room.

Coroner: When did you see her last?

Lane: -Between six and seven in the evening. She was then in the kitchen. She had a long cloak on and a black bonnet.

Coroner: Are they the same as you saw in the mortuary?

Lane: "I did not see them in the mortuary," replied the witness. "I saw the woman between six and seven on Sunday evening."

What! ejaculated a Juryman in evident surprise.

The witness repeated her words.

"Alive?" asked the Coroner.

"Oh, no, dead."

Regards, Jon S.

[c.d.]

I think that we need to keep in mind that the Liz being killed by Jack scenario does not require Liz being actively soliciting that night. A woman standing by herself late at night could be taken for a prostitute. It's possible that Jack recognized her as such from previous evenings. Even if she was not actively soliciting, she might have been receptive to a bit of cash at the end of the evening. Jack might have even offered to up the usual amount for her services.

So the whole date thing, while it makes for an interesting debate, needs to be kept in perspective.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

club

Hello Velma.

"What if . . . she was just doing a night out?"

OK. But why on earth go to the Berner st club?

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Velma.

"What if . . . she was just doing a night out?"

OK. But why on earth go to the Berner st club?

Cheers.
LC

If she had been previously hassled by the BS man that night and she saw him approaching, she might have seen it as a safe refuge, i.e., any port in a storm.

c.d.

[Bridewell]

Hello Velma.

"What if . . . she was just doing a night out?"

OK. But why on earth go to the Berner st club?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Why not? She was newly single . We're told that she cleaned for Jewish people and, according to Michael Kidney, she spoke Yiddish. If she liked Jewish people and had Jewish friends, surely it's quite likely that she knew people who were IWMEC members?

[c.d.]

Here is a question that I have to admit I don't know the answer to. Were women or non-members allowed in the club? Why would a single woman wait by herself in a bad area late at night in the cold if she could have gone inside? If a member brought her or if she was there to see a member about working for him couldn't she have just knocked on the door and asked to be let inside? Or was this strictly verboten?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

problem

Hello CD. Thanks.

Slight problem.

1. We don't know if/why he hassled her earlier.

2. We don't know if/why he hassled her.

3. We don't know if he existed.

4. We don't know if Schwartz were the BS (not broad shouldered) man.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

A charring we will go.

Hello Colin. Thanks.

Well, anything's possible--here's the problem.

Charring was done for mostly Orthodox Jews. Why? So they would not violate the Sabbath. But the IWMEC people were not Orthodox Jews--far from it.

Could she be there to meet someone? Absolutely. But does that not change the equation a bit?

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all,

To Jon, the issue of the sixpence is dealt with at the Inquest when Catherine Lane was asked about the piece of velvet Liz left..

"[Coroner] Did you see her leave the lodging-house?
[Catherine] Yes; she gave me a piece of velvet as she left, and asked me to mind it until she came back. (The velvet was produced, and proved to be a large piece, green in colour.)
[Coroner] Had she no place to leave it?
[Catherine] I do not know why she asked me, as the deputy would take charge of anything. I know deceased had sixpence when she left; she showed it to me, stating that the deputy had given it to her. "

When Liz had finished cleaning at around 5pm her and Ms Tanner went to the Queens Head, she went back to the lodging house with Tanner to get her cloak and bonnet before going out..."She went back with me to the lodging-house. At that time she had no bonnet or cloak on."

As to why Liz would go to the club, assuming a night out at the club is almost assuredly incorrect. She didnt arrive there until after the meeting and at a time when only members hung about inside. Now...assuming a night of cleaning at the club, or a night out with someone still at the club, or returning to the club, or a night out to meet an employer and go to his residence to work Sunday morning....those are possible.

Best regards