6d. Did Liz spend it, or die for it?

[RivkahChaya]

Oh. I get it. They didn't actually hold a feast, just issued an invitation to one. Kinda like the Aryan Nation inviting Louis Farrakhan to a Ramadan breakfast. Gotcha.

[curious4]

Perhaps, as fasting (going hungry) was such an everyday occurance in Whitechapel at the time, they took the fast as read and just concentrated on the party.

C4

[lynn cates]

invitation

Hello Rivkah. Thanks.

Well, I presume they had actually prepared something. But, yes, merely the invitation was enough to cause an outcry.

Cheers.
LC

[Roy Corduroy]

The club had offended the Orthodox Jewish community by holding a Yom Kippur feast. It was in the "Jewish Standard."

Here is that article in the Jewish Standard http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=4164

It says - "These are the men who had a festival banquet on Yom Kippur." (for nothing)

Roy

[RivkahChaya]

Perhaps, as fasting (going hungry) was such an everyday occurance in Whitechapel at the time, they took the fast as read and just concentrated on the party.

Not quite. There are synagogue services pretty much from sunup to sundown. There's a prayer for the dead called yizkor, which isn't recited very often, and in my experience, a lot of people who have very few other observances still observe yizkor, especially if they have lost either a parent or child, or lost someone else in the last year.

Also, a lot of Jews get nostalgic for some of the music on Yom Kippur, particularly Kol Nidre, on the evening of YK, and for the blowing of the shofar. If you know very non-religious people who still like to sing carols at Christmas, same idea.

Having a YK feast is really going way out of one's way to offend. I'm having trouble coming up with a Christian counterpart. Anyway, it's really, really offensive.

[lynn cates]

analogue

Hello Rivkah. Yes, it was intended to be offensive.

"I'm having trouble coming up with a Christian counterpart."

How about a Lenten feast? Perhaps lots of beefsteak on Friday?

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

Rivkah, I appreciate the infomation on the High Holidays, it seems I mispoke based on information gained from some earlier discussions on this matter. I am not conversant in precisely when and what is being celebrated, but it does seem something was being celebrated, you mentioned "erev Shabbes", which Im assuming is some kind of religious observance since you also mention people would be in temples at that time. Thats likely what I was actually meaning, rather than High Holidays. Although, I had been given a different date for Rosh Hashanah that year. As to Liz stating that she had been at "work among the Jews", it's a quote from her landlady, the one she cleaned for that afternoon.

And yes, the club was almost exclusively Jewish, and apparently primarily Reformed, although I dont recall seeing that other ethnicities were barred. The meeting topic should shed light on whom they expected to attend, "Why Jews should be Socialists".

The Thread asks where did the 6d go...and we perhaps have a very simple way of answering that question... should anyone know what the combined cost of a packet of cashous and a small arrangement for her jacket would cost.

All the best.

[RivkahChaya]

I think it'd be more like having a mock communion, with Necco wafers, and peppermint Schnapps, or making a crucifix with a donkey's head on Jesus (which I understand some did, in a graffito back in Greece, in the year 200 CE, or thereabouts, but I'm talking a real figure).

I mean, people got into a uproar when a church in Oklahoma commissioned a painting in the style of the San Damiano crucifix, associated with St. Francis of Assisi,



and it somehow ended up looking like this:



which I personally find hilarious, but I'm not a Christian. My gawd, there was an uproar. "Uproar" does not begin to describe it, even.

[curious4]

Socialist working men's club

Hello Michael,

A working men's club in an area where most of the workers were jewish would naturally have a predominance of jewish members. Nevertheless it was a socialist club, with the aim of promoting socialist views. Many prominent socialists of the time spoke at the club. Socialists were far from popular, with their demands for fair pay and fair working hours at a time when fortunes were built on sweat shops. They were considered dangerous agitators. Concentrating on the jewish aspects and not the socialist aspects of the club muddies the waters as I see it. Many wanted to bring the club into disrepute, not because the members were jewish, but because they were socialists.

Best wishes,
C4

[RivkahChaya]

I am not conversant in precisely when and what is being celebrated, but it does seem something was being celebrated, you mentioned "erev Shabbes", which Im assuming is some kind of religious observance since you also mention people would be in temples at that time.

Shabbes is sundown Friday to Sundown Saturday, and it's very holy and important to religious Jews.

Thats likely what I was actually meaning, rather than High Holidays. Although, I had been given a different date for Rosh Hashanah that year.

Rosh Hashanah is the first day of the Jewish year, so Googling "date of Rosh Hashanah 1888" may get you the wrong date, if you aren't exactly sure what you are looking for, especially since what you will probably get is a perpetual calendar, and not a simple date-- or it may give you the date of Rosh Hashanah in the Jewish year 1888, which was several thousand years ago.

And yes, the club was almost exclusively Jewish, and apparently primarily Reformed,

There's no such thing as "Reformed" Jews. I think you mean "Reform" Jews. I'm not really sure what the status of the Reform movement was in England in 1888, but it was primarily a phenomenon of central Europe, that began in France after the revolution, then took hold in Germany. It made its way to the US, and became very strong there, mainly because the US actually offered Jews full citizenship under the law, even if it didn't always quite work out in practice; it was the first time that Reform Judaism as an ideal could fully be exercised. After WWII, though, the philosophies of Reform Judaism were much modified, but nevermind for now.

If the Jews of the East End were mostly Russian and Polish, they would doubtfully have been Reform. If what you mean by Reform is "not very observant," then say that. I know that the Orthodox criticize Reform Jews for dropping many forms of observance, but this has been done according to a philosophy, and many were resumed after WWII, when people began seeking affirmation of Jewish identity. "Reform" is not a synonym for "non-observant," and I say that honestly as someone who is not a Reform Jew, and does not agree with Reform philosophy (or, not on the whole), although I think I understand it.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

A working men's club in an area where most of the workers were jewish would naturally have a predominance of jewish members. Nevertheless it was a socialist club, with the aim of promoting socialist views. Many prominent socialists of the time spoke at the club. Socialists were far from popular, with their demands for fair pay and fair working hours at a time when fortunes were built on sweat shops. They were considered dangerous agitators. Concentrating on the jewish aspects and not the socialist aspects of the club muddies the waters as I see it. Many wanted to bring the club into disrepute, not because the members were jewish, but because they were socialists.

Best wishes,
C4

Hi C4,

I appreciate your sentiments and agree that broad brush strokes are not always the best way to cover something.......however, as Im sure members like Tom Wescott and others, perhaps Lynn, can tell you is that the club makeup at the time was almost exclusively immigrant Jews. Tom I believe has seen some of the roster of the time period, and Lynn has had documentation of the Arbeter Fraint, published onsite, translated for us.

The meeting was to attract Immigrant Jews to Socialism, not to convert Socialists to Judaism. If you look at all the senior members mentioned that night you will see what I mean, all were immigrant Jews.

Thanks for the follow up pointers Rivkah.

Cheers

[RivkahChaya]

If anyone's interested, "Arbeter Fraint" means something like "Worker's Friend" in Yiddish. I'm not quite sure about the declension. I think it's very close to the German, though, so many people have probably figured that out already.

[Michael W Richards]

If anyone's interested, "Arbeter Fraint" means something like "Worker's Friend" in Yiddish. I'm not quite sure about the declension. I think it's very close to the German, though, so many people have probably figured that out already.

It was indeed known as The Workers Friend by the English speaking folk Rivkah.

Best regards

[curious4]

I think it'd be more like having a mock communion, with Necco wafers, and peppermint Schnapps, or making a crucifix with a donkey's head on Jesus (which I understand some did, in a graffito back in Greece, in the year 200 CE, or thereabouts, but I'm talking a real figure).

I mean, people got into a uproar when a church in Oklahoma commissioned a painting in the style of the San Damiano crucifix, associated with St. Francis of Assisi,



and it somehow ended up looking like this:



which I personally find hilarious, but I'm not a Christian. My gawd, there was an uproar. "Uproar" does not begin to describe it, even.

Dear Rivkah,

Having now informed myself as regards Yom Kipoor I can now understand your anger and can only apologise. I had thought it to be something in the style of Ramadan or Easter, with first a fast and then a feast and now realise that it is something completely different.

However, you must agree with me that it is something completely different to be an Orthodox Jew for the middle classes in 2013 in a rich country than to be a desperately poor immigrant in Whitechapel in 1888 and understand that some (presumably) young jews would rebel against a religion which had caused them first to be persecuted in their homeland and then ejected from it. It is understandable that some may have temporarily lost their faith (I`m sure that the majority would have returned when older). To them a fast may have seemed a mockery perhaps.

It is in my nature to be flippant, but I do apologise for any offence to you or anyone else.

Best wishes,
C4/Gwyneth

[curious4]

Liz`s sixpence

Dear All,

A recent attack in Sweden has shown that it is feasible that a psychopath can, in effect, groom his victim. An older woman was approached at her flat by a man between 20 and thirty and asked about a family he was trying to contact. At first she kept the safety chain on her door and did so the next time he approached her. On the third occasion he rang the doorbell to say that he had found the people he was looking for and had bought some chocolate to thank her. She then took off the safety chain and let him in, upon which he demanded a sum of money, but gave her no chance to get it, beating her savagely and stabbing her twice in the throat, narrowly missing the carotoid artery. His victim described the sudden change in his expression from friendly to murderous. He left without the money he demanded and it seem more than likely that the attack was his objective. She is lucky to be alive and hopefully the man will be caught soon, as it is more than possible that he will go on to kill his next victim.

This led me to think that this is just what Jack may have done with his victims, treating Liz to cachous and giving her the flower from his lapel (I think). Polly Nicholls had a new bonnet although she was penniless and was in a hurry when her friend met her, Mary Ann Kelly had "lost her handkerchief", Kate seems to have had an appointment (why else be so concerned about the time?) and Liz took particular care with her appearance that evening and Annie Chapman dragged herself out despite feeling very ill.

To me it fits but please argue away!

Best wishes,
C4