Was Stride Really a JtR Victim?

[lynn cates]

welcome

Hello Jogo. Welcome to the boards.

Choral society?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

carnal knowledge

Hello Bob. Thanks. Almost missed this.

"As for the inference that she was a prostitute, Preston names her as Long Liz, implying that he knows her well."

OK. But how do we get from knowledge to carnal knowledge?

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

It would seem that its time for me to drag out that old reminder about what is used to classify a woman either an Unfortunate, or a Prostitute, in 1888.

There were in fact "registered" prostitutes, unlike the use of the term when Liz was one back in Goteborg around 1885-6, but police did have records of women that made their living exclusively by prostituting themselves. If I recall correctly they estimated that number at around 1200 in that district near the time of the murders. Then there are Unfortunates, who by definition were desperately poor, and unfortunately without regular income or a man to support them. They ate and slept in beds when they could,... and often that was accomplished by soliciting.

But some women did have work to provide income, and if the money exceeded their demands for alcohol, they had no need to stoop to what in the Victorian Era was almost unthinkable, publicly, to polite society.

Canonical Group:

Polly was soliciting by her own admission the night she is murdered, after earning her doss and drinking the money away several times. Annie was soliciting, and ill, admitting to a friend that she better shape up and try to get some money for her bed. Liz Stride was murdered after she had worked and been paid that afternoon, and she was in her own words recently "at work among the Jews." She is killed without any evidence that she was soliciting, without the requisite failure to earn enough for a bed, and she is sober...dressed decently and found with flowers on her jacket and sweets for her breath in her hand...outside a club populated at that time mostly by Russian, German or Polish Jews.

Kate Eddowes was killed within 45 minutes of being released from jail and in the opposite direction from her supposed "partner" John. If the Three Wisemen did actually see Kate, all we can say for sure is that she appeared friendly with the man. So....we cannot state with any real conviction that she was soliciting. Its possible....so are many other answers. Mary Kelly was killed in her own room, one that she rented in her own name while with Barnett....the ex who said he objected to her "working the streets". Since he lived there with her until the end of October, and we know that Maria Harvey stayed there until Nov 3rd, and Mary was seen out with Daniel Barnett one of those remaining evenings, one would almost have to conclude that she suddenly began bringing clients to her private room within that day or 2 remaining. Therefore, she likely did not bring men home as clients, and since she is found undressed and in bed in her own room, the only logical conclusion based on that evidence is that she was in the company of someone she knew well.

Summary:

It would appear that at least 3 of the women had been earning any money they made shortly before their deaths primarily as prostitutes, but only 2 were actively doing so at the time. We do not know what the circumstances of the other 2 women were at that time, we only know that we cannot state factually that they were soliciting.

If you accept the premise that one of the selection criteria of the killer of Polly and Annie was that they were out soliciting alone in the middle of the night and slightly compromised by their physical conditions at the time...which for me is quite reasonable,....then would that not be a factor in any future murders or attempts by their same killer? Isnt a man who seeks out lonely strangers a very likely suspect for those first 2 murders?

If so...then how could we say with any credibility that these five murders were connected to a single killer when we do not have the empirical evidence to substantiate the claim?

Anyone who tells you that you are theorizing and not adhering to the accepted truths regarding these murders when you offer a different suggestion on what may have occurred....has actually only accepted a more palatable theory themselves.

One crazy guy is easy to understand, and easy to see by their actions in retrospect...well, we have the retrospection, but I can assure you that these are not easy answer crimes.

My best regards

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

So....we cannot state with any real conviction that she was soliciting. Its possible....so are many other answers.

[I]True, but what other reason(s) are likely and are supported?

the only logical conclusion based on that evidence is that she was in the company of someone she knew well.

It maybe a logical one, but not the only logical one. Alcohol and rain might have some factor. Rent in arrears.


*but I can assure you that these are not easy answer crimes.

I can pretty much get behind that.
My best regards[/QUOTE]

I think availability maybe a more important factor than people take into consideration. I'm not pro or anti "JTR" I'm still factoring. For clarity. Thanks Michael I'm glad you poked your head in here.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Michael!

So....we cannot state with any real conviction that she was soliciting. Its possible....so are many other answers.

[I]True, but what other reason(s) are likely and are supported?

the only logical conclusion based on that evidence is that she was in the company of someone she knew well.

It maybe a logical one, but not the only logical one. Alcohol and rain might have some factor. Rent in arrears.


*but I can assure you that these are not easy answer crimes.

I can pretty much get behind that.
My best regards[/QUOTE]

I think availability maybe a more important factor than people take into consideration. I'm not pro or anti "JTR" I'm still factoring. For clarity. Thanks Michael I'm glad you poked your head in here.

[Hunter]

Why would Chief Inspector Swanson write that Elizabeth Stride was a prostitute?

[martin wilson]

Thomas Bates,the watchman at no 32 maybe?
He seems straight of Mary Poppins.
'Lor' bless you,when she could get no work she had to do the best she could for her living, but a neater and cleaner woman never lived'
No work I'm interpreting as not an alternative, legitimate source of income different to her usual source.

[The Good Michael]

Anyone who tells you that you are theorizing and not adhering to the accepted truths regarding these murders when you offer a different suggestion on what may have occurred....has actually only accepted a more palatable theory themselves.

Of course. Palatable means reasonable sensible and not devoid of thought.

Mike

[lynn cates]

his take

Hello Cris.

"Why would Chief Inspector Swanson write that Elizabeth Stride was a prostitute?"

My best guest is that:

1. She was considered a prostitute whilst in Sweden.

2. The local beat coppers thought her one because of her "get up."

3. She was out late.

Not a bad bit of inductive evidence, but not conclusive.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

work

Hello Martin.

"No work I'm interpreting as not an alternative, legitimate source of income different to her usual source."

Good interpretation. Of course, she DID have work, and within a few hours of the time she died.

Cheers.
LC

[jogo]

Hello Jogo. Welcome to the boards.

Choral society?

Cheers.
LC

Cheers for the welcome.

Don't know how I got that idea. Of course it wasn't a glee club but a workers club.

Greetings
George

[lynn cates]

Loves his work.

Hello George. Thanks.

No problem.

And no reason a worker can't be gleeful. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Of course. Palatable means reasonable sensible and not devoid of thought.

Mike

Thats precisely what I meant Mike, palatable to the individual espousing it....not that the theory has any more validity than most of the "fringe" suggestions you seem to get bothered about.

There are those that choose to believe one overarching principal is present despite the lack of empirical evidence required to support it, and others that choose to believe many things are possible here.....Im among the second group.

Best regards

[Colin Roberts]

My point about Berner St possibly being off the "Ripper's" "patch" is neither conviction nor gut feeling - its based on looking at the distribution of the murders plotted on a street map! As all the other murders (bar the Pinchen St torso) are NORTH of the high St, and to me the Stride killing has features that make it for me unlikely to be by the hand of "Jack", it makes me ask a question, nothing more.

The Coles murder-site was also south of Whitechapel High Street, but that is probably not relevant to the discussion at hand.

The Nichols murder-site was the only one that was located east of Baker's Row; while the Chapman murder-site was the only one that was located north of Hanbury Street; and the Eddowes murder-site was the only one that was located west of Middlesex Street; so on and so forth …

On the other hand, think about this - there must have been SOME limits that cicumscribed "Jack's" patch, and from time to time a murder will be discussed and someone will say - too far east, or not in the right area. Those with appropriate expertise draw complex maps to determine where the centre of Jack's patch was. So we do make decisions about such things. You simply don't see the point of mine (possibly because you feel certain Stride WAS a Ripper killing). That's fine.

There is nothing particularly "complex" about the determination of a point of central tendency. It's hardly 'rocket science' and it requires no "expertise", let alone any of the "appropriate" sort.

I wonder where I could get my hands on one of these maps!


Elliptical Deviations from Murder-Site Mean-Center (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

This is the only map that I have seen that actually does point out the slightly anomalous aspect of the Stride murder-site.

I will come back to it momentarily.

Those with appropriate expertise draw complex maps to determine where the centre of Jack's patch was.

That would be the fine fellow called Colin Roberts with whom you are debating.

Thanks Greg, but I am certainly no 'expert' in the field of geographic spatial analysis.

As for the pseudo field of 'Geographic Profiling'; I suppose it could be said that its pioneers - namely David Canter, Ned Levine and Kim Rossmo - are each 'expert' in his own right; but by default.

David Canter has done some work in this very area, Colin, He concluded that rivers, railway lines, buildings, roads and suchlike do indeed act as psychological boundaries. His contention, I believe, was that the Whitechapel Road would have assumed just such a boundary in the mind of the killer.

… certainly could have, Gary: not "would have"!

I don't believe that David Canter would be naïve enough to stick his neck out quite so far.

---

The above imagery depicts the standard deviation ellipse (red) about the murder-site mean-center (green dot); as well as a set of six proportionally elliptical contours (white) that corresponds to the set of six murder-sites.

Each white contour passes directly through its respective murder-site, as well as the set of all other points that deviate from the murder-site mean-center to the same degree.

The major axis of the ellipse is oriented in conjunction with the axis of greatest aggregate deviation from the murder-site mean-center; which means that by default, the minor axis of the ellipse is oriented along the axis of least aggregate deviation from the same.

The standard deviation ellipse, along with the set of six proportionally elliptical murder-site contours, clearly suggests that a presumed murderer of each of these women roamed either the thoroughfare that was Wentworth Street / Old Montague Street or the thoroughfare that was Whitechapel High Street / Whitechapel Road, in search of his prey; i.e. that he was more mobile in a southwesterly-northeasterly direction than in any other.

The interesting thing about the Stride contour, is that it clearly reveals the fact that Dutfield's Yard was more of an outlier than was Mitre Square, even though it was actually closer - in absolute terms - to the murder-site mean-center.

So, if I were otherwise inclined - and I am - to perceive a two-in-three chance, i.e. a 66.67% probability that Elizabeth Stride was felled by the same hand as was Annie Chapman (Chapman being the standard as far as I am concerned, for gauging whether any of these women was a victim of 'Jack the Ripper'), then perhaps I should be inclined on the basis of the slightly anomalous outlying nature of the Stride murder-site, to temper my inclination somewhat; so as to perceive … let's say … a five-in-eight chance, i.e. a 62.50% probability. Perhaps I should!

[Hunter]

Hello Cris.

"Why would Chief Inspector Swanson write that Elizabeth Stride was a prostitute?"

My best guest is that:

1. She was considered a prostitute whilst in Sweden.

2. The local beat coppers thought her one because of her "get up."

3. She was out late.

Not a bad bit of inductive evidence, but not conclusive.

And maybe they had checked into her antecedents as would normally occur in a criminal investigation. She had been arrested for soliciting in Whitechapel.