Was Stride Really a JtR Victim?

[lynn cates]

Kidney

Hello (again) Bob. Thanks.

"In addition Kidney had previous for violence towards Stride. . ."

Indeed? haven't seen that one--except the one case that Liz failed to show.

". . . and if he had suspected she was seeing someone else, it wouldn't have taken much to track her down, he would know her haunts."

Berner? I'll bite. Why was that her haunt?

"I think he is a far more plausible suspect of Stride's death than JTR?"

Perhaps. But that's not saying much. (heh-heh)

"Do we know his previous convictions, I haven't seen any on the site as yet."

Nor yet I.

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

"I think he is a far more plausible suspect of Stride's death than JTR?"

Perhaps. But that's not saying much.(heh heh)

Cheers.
LC[/QUOTE]

I concur. As far as the data is concerned, we gots about diddley.

[bobh]

Diga, I'm much obliged to you for pointing me in the direction of 'Exonerating Kidney', lots of new information to digest, many thanks

[bobh]

Lyn, I think for Stride to bring one prosecution, she would have been assaulted numerous times, even today for every dv incident reported, on average there have been over twenty incidents prior to that. I can't believe that it was any better in Victorian times.

As for the inference that she was a prostitute, Preston names her as Long Liz, implying that he knows her well.

Best wishes, Bob

[bobh]

One point has struck me. Stride's murder was in the middle of the sequence, when the prostitutes knew about what was happening to them, yet when Stride is pushed to the floor by BS Man, she screams three times, but not loudly. Surely of she believed she was in the clutches of JTR she would have screamed the place down, knowing that help was nearby.

To me this implies that she knew BS Man, either as a regular client or a lover, or even Kidney, and was trying to discourage him from assaulting her, but not get him arrested or lynched.

[bobh]

And one last point, before I send you all off to sleep, if Stride believed she was with JTR, and wouldn't go any further into the yard, why would he take the colossal risk of killing her near to the gateway, knowing that he would be unlikely to be able to complete his mutilations without discovery and possible capture, when he could have just walked away and been written off as a rough punter?

It just doesn't make sense to be that she was a JTR victim, the only evidence to suggest so is that she was a prostitute and had her throat cut, in the same area. As we already are told, Whitechapel was a den of iniquity, murder was a frequent occurrence, and I can't imagine the method being particularly uncommon. If it hadn't happened on the same night as the Eddowes killing, it would not have been linked with JTR.

Best wishes, Bob

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Method

Well according to the data, which some scoff at, there were about 11 women murdered by having their throats cut in 87', 16 in 88', 11 in 89'. Make of that what you will. Those numbers may not be spot on as I am going off memory here, but it is very close to those. Subsequent and following years hover close to 10 or so. Oh these numbers are for London I think. Not just Whitechapel.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Why murder her?

It is good policy. This all depends on the truthfullness of IS and accuracy of his translator(s). I'm not completely sold either way yet. Something feels wrong though. Not sure what it is yet. Lynn and Michael Richards are much more well versed in this than I. Just sat down at the table on this one.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Bob

As others have said, welcome to the boards...Personally the night of the "double event" drives me crazy...it also keeps me fascinated too - so much of the evidence can be interpreted more than one way...

As one who tries to argue issues either way, just to try to get a grip on them as much as anything else, I think you're asking all the right questions and expressing all the right doubts...but as Eric Morecombe was apt to say, not necessarily in the right order...

Some folk will always argue that whatever Liz Stride was actually doing that night is irrelevant...it's what JtR THOUGHT she was doing that counts...For what it's worth I think that's rather begging the question though...almost a circular argument...

I think if you're going to argue Kidney did it, you've got to provide a motive that transcends Tom Westcott's well argued dissertation...and to that extent Liz Stride's behaviour that night may well provide a clue...maybe the only clue, apart from the time discrepancies which just might make Schwartz's tale that of a witness to murder...

I don't pretend to be 100% convinced either way, but I currently tend to lean more your way than the other...

Whatever...hope you enjoy yourself as much on here as I do!

All the best

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

One more Bob

Is it not an assumption that Kidney abused her? It is not a popular thing to say ,but being murdered doesn't make you a good and honest person. But when a woman says hey he beats me, people tend to believe her without much question. Women are treacherous too.

[jogo]

In my opinion Stride has been killed by JtR.

Stride was looking for a new customer by waiting nearby the entrance of the choral society, followed by Jack the Ripper. The window was open, it was noisy, nobody would realise the murder. Jack attacks stride, she screams cause of fear, but nobody hears.

JtR hears the cart of Diemschütz coming nearer (a horse cart on cobble is very noisy), but thinks the cart passes by. So he cuts her throat, for some reason from the front and with the left hand. Then Diemschütz unexpectetly enters the yard and Jack hides into the darkness.

When Diemschütz found Stride and has gone to call for help Jack the Ripper fled. He has been disturbed and he was not satisfied, so he has to search a second victim. He knows that at any moment the MET police would be present in Whitechapel, so he had to cross the bounderies of the City of London. There he found Chatharina Eddowes at the quiet Mitre Square and completed his work.

After he killed Eddowes he went back home and lost a part of Eddowes apron accidentally at the Goulston-Street-Graffito-site.

[Bridewell]

That being the case, why would he even consider the yard as a suitable venue?

Perhaps he didn't consider it a suitable venue but if Stride was targetted personally, rather than at random, perhaps her killer thought it might be his only opportunity and that the risk was one which had to be taken. That (for me) would point the finger away from Kidney who might reasonably expect to have other, less risky, opportunities. The murder immediately preceding Stride was that of Annie Chapman, at whose inquest a witness by the name of Elizabeth Long claimed to have seen Chapman talking to a man who (if true) pretty much had to be her killer. Liz Long gives her evidence and two weeks later the next to die is Long Liz. Coincidence? Probably - but possibly not. That would explain the lack of mutilation (there's no suggestion that Elizabeth Long - as opposed to Stride -was a prostitute). Same killer (so carotid artery attack) but different motive (so no abdominal mutilation). Mistaken identity - but intending to silence a dangerous witness.

I speculate here of course, but not wholly without reason in my view.

[lynn cates]

"j T R"

Hello Bob. Interesting observation.

"Surely if she believed she was in the clutches of JTR she would have screamed the place down."

Of course, "JTR" was not discovered yet. And it was now about 3 weeks since the last killing.

Cheers.
LC

[bobh]

In support of the idea that Stride knew her killer, I would direct your attention to the fact that she had cachou's in her hand to sweeten her breath, surely this would only be for a lover or regular client, not your average 'quickie' so to speak.

Jogo, if the window was open, that cuts both ways with the idea, that she wanted to discourage him by not screaming loudly, just enough to discourage her attacker.

Bridewell, I have to say that I'm really really struggling with this coincidence, although you do say is is speculation,

Best wishes, Bob

[lynn cates]

"It's more than a feeling . . ."

Hello DLDW.

"I'm not completely sold either way yet. Something feels wrong though."

You noticed that too?

Cheers.
LC