Was Stride Really a JtR Victim?

[Cogidubnus]

That puzzled me too...

I may be wrong, (and probably am), but I thought Lawende's police statement only said the man was taller than the woman, whilst Levy's said about 3" taller...have I got that right?

Baffled of Bognor
(Dave)

[Garry Wroe]

I'm afraid that point got lost amid the verbiage - what on earth are we disagreeing about then?

The position and location of Stride when her throat was cut. Since the medical evidence makes it clear that the wound was inflicted within the yard on the spot where her body was dicovered, Schwartz could not, as some maintain, have seen the murder taking place. By implication, therefore, the assault that preceded the killing, along with the 'quiet screams' and other factors, would appear to imply that Stride entered the yard with Broad Shoulders consensually, which in turn insinuates that the two had a pre-existing relationship. In other words Stride knew Broad Shoulders but didn't suspect that her life was in imminent danger. Had this not been the case, and had she suspected that she was in company with the man who had previously murdered and mutilated Nichols and Chapman, she would have screamed for all she was worth whilst being manhandled in Berner Street.

[Garry Wroe]

It seems that there is some effort being made to suggest that the people seen by Schwartz, according to his statement,...and by Lawende, according to his...are a match for each other. They are not.

Agreed, Mike. That there were contradictions in the physical appearances of these two men I could easily attribute to the unreliability of eyewitness recollection. Less easy to rationalize are the behavioural inconsistencies. Whereas Church Passage man was calm, composed and patient, Broad Shoulders was clearly under the influence, volatile, aggressive and unconcerned by the fact that his assault on Stride was committed in full view of onlookers. On this basis alone I find it difficult to believe that we are dealing with a single offender.

[Jon Guy]

Agreed, Mike. That there were contradictions in the physical appearances of these two men I could easily attribute to the unreliability of eyewitness recollection. Less easy to rationalize are the behavioural inconsistencies. Whereas Church Passage man was calm, composed and patient, Broad Shoulders was clearly under the influence, volatile, aggressive and unconcerned by the fact that his assault on Stride was committed in full view of onlookers. On this basis alone I find it difficult to believe that we are dealing with a single offender.

Hi Garry

But BS Man was not aware of the onlooker until after he had been throwing her about.

Church Passage Man had three men walking in his direction, and he was standing so it would be difficult to notice if he was under the influence.

Even so, as with Grainger and Graham, the mood can change quickly from calm to aggressive.
Sutcliffe would tell the police of the anger that would suddenly well up in him when triggered, in that instance, the combination of his passenger`s cheap perfume and sweat after he had picked the prostitute up.

[Garry Wroe]

But BS Man was not aware of the onlooker until after he had been throwing her about.

Possibly, Jon, but unlikely in my view.

Church Passage Man had three men walking in his direction, and he was standing so it would be difficult to notice if he was under the influence.

Interestingly, though, Jon, he was neither manhandling Eddowes nor hurling racial insults at Lawende and company.

Sutcliffe would tell the police of the anger that would suddenly well up in him when triggered, in that instance, the combination of his passenger`s cheap perfume and sweat after he had picked the prostitute up.

Sutcliffe said a lot of things, Jon. He also happened to be in possession of a hammer and knives when provoked by these olfactory triggers - to say nothing of wearing a pair of woolen tights especially modified to allow him to masturbate in more comfort over the dead or dying bodies of his victims. He also attacked and attempted to kill a fourteen year old on her way home from school. Presumably she'd just finished a gym class and was smelling a little ripe at the time. Like I said, Jon, Sutcliffe said a lot of things, mostly in an attempt to justify the unjustifiable.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Garry

Possibly, Jon, but unlikely in my view..

The reasons I don`t think he was aware he was been watched are that Schwartz was a distance behind him, and BS Man only shouted at him once Schwartz drew level and crossed the road, which will be the time he clocked him for the first time na dfelt the need to hurl abuse.

Interestingly, though, Jon, he was neither manhandling Eddowes nor hurling racial insults at Lawende and company.

But wasn`t that because he could see the three men approaching before he had began to assault Eddowes. He also need to get her down the alley, whereas Stride was already standing in the dark gateway so he could just push her back out of sight of the street.
He was certainly manhandling Eddowes once the three had passed and he had maneovered her from under the lamp to down the passage.

Sutcliffe said a lot of things, Jon. He also happened to be in possession of a hammer and knives when provoked by these olfactory triggers - to say nothing of wearing a pair of woolen tights especially modified to allow him to masturbate in more comfort over the dead or dying bodies of his victims. He also attacked and attempted to kill a fourteen year old on her way home from school. Presumably she'd just finished a gym class and was smelling a little ripe at the time. Like I said, Jon, Sutcliffe said a lot of things, mostly in an attempt to justify the unjustifiable.

Just because he was prepared with his weird underwear and weapons he was still calm and together whilst he drove around picking up girls, and needed to remain so whilst persuading them to get out of the car into the back seat or to lie on the grass. Some of them didn`t want to do this, yet he persuaded them. He only "lost it" at the moment he had them where he wanted
The girls who stank of sweat and perfume were the prostitutes who climbed into his car.
That`s the difference between them and us Garry.

[Cogidubnus]

Which clearly wasn't the case, Caz. Stride was roughed up on the street. This must have been so otherwise Schwartz could not have seen what he saw whilst approaching the stableyard gates on the same side of the street. Yet the murder took place some five feet inside the yard. Since the bloodflow from Stride's throat wound confirms that the incision was inflicted where the body was discovered, it could not have been sustained immediately after the street assault.

All of which would appear to indicate that Stride entered the yard consensually with her killer. To repeat a point I made over on the Forum some months ago: ‘Stride was fully aware that a mutilation murderer was stalking the district and presumably had no desire to become a victim herself. One would therefore assume that she would have raised the alarm at the first hint of danger, and yet she emitted no more than a mild protestation whilst under attack.

Hi Garry

Sorry to be so late commenting, but this issue is actually addressed in Paul Begg's excellent "JtR The Facts" (pages 156/157)...According to the Star's own account of Schwartz's testimony, (in which Pipeman becomes Daggerman - possibly a mistranslation...or possibly Pipeman was), Schwartz walked up Berners from Commercial Road, until he reached Dutfields Yard...but upon seeing the dispute he then crossed to the other side of the street...

"Before he had gone many yards, however, he heard the sound of a quarrel, and turned back to learn what was the matter"

The Star also claims that Schwartz witnessed BS man pushing Stride INTO the passage, as opposed to onto the pavement...

So, if the version in The Star is to be believed, (and who is to say whether the Met or The Star had the best translator?), it is quite possible that crossing the road on the diagonal, Schwartz looked back and saw Liz being thrown down IN THE YARD...ie maybe what he witnessed was part of the murder...the conclusions on Pages 157/158 regarding the validity of Schwartz's story are also interesting...

I appreciate, incidentally, I'm quoting "second-hand", but I don't want to be seen as trying to claim credit for something someone else has spotted!

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

considerations

Hello Dave.

"it is quite possible that crossing the road on the diagonal, Schwartz looked back and saw Liz being thrown down IN THE YARD...ie maybe what he witnessed was part of the murder"

Was it possible to see into the yard, given the lighting?

If he had, how would her body have lain?

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Was there no lighting at all from the kitchen or the printing office?

Dave

[lynn cates]

upstairs/downstairs

Hello Dave. Thanks.

Only the upstairs rooms.

Cheers.
LC

[Paddy]

Jack the Ripper the Facts (page 157)

Hi Dave just looked at page 157.

The Star reported..
"The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes. The prisoner has not been charged, but is held for enquiries to be made.The truth of the mans statement is not wholly accepted"

The next day they reported..
"In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw the struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story"

I dont know if the same reporter wrote both these but its my feeling that the second report is a mistaken interpretation of the first one.

Whats your take on it?
Pat...................

[Wickerman]

Hi Dave just looked at page 157.

The Star reported..
"The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes. The prisoner has not been charged, but is held for enquiries to be made.The truth of the mans statement is not wholly accepted"

The next day they reported..
"In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw the struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story"

I dont know if the same reporter wrote both these but its my feeling that the second report is a mistaken interpretation of the first one.

Whats your take on it?
Pat...................

A mistake by the same newspaper?
It was their own story, what could they confuse it with?

[Paddy]

Hi Jon,
A mistake by the same newspaper?
It was their own story, what could they confuse it with?

Between the first report, where the doubt is of the arrested mans statement
and the second report where the doubt is of Schwartz's statement.

Pat......................

[Cogidubnus]

So if it's as dark as that Lynn. how can Leon Goldstein be so clearly seen? (something admitted by both parties)...or does the darkness apply only at the end of Diemschutz's whip?

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Dave just looked at page 157.

The Star reported..
"The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes. The prisoner has not been charged, but is held for enquiries to be made.The truth of the mans statement is not wholly accepted"

The next day they reported..
"In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw the struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story"

I dont know if the same reporter wrote both these but its my feeling that the second report is a mistaken interpretation of the first one.

Whats your take on it?
Pat...................

Hi Pat

But the police went on believing the Schwartz account was true until at least November (same source)...

All the best

Dave