Was Stride Really a JtR Victim?

[Jon Guy]

Agreed, Mike. That there were contradictions in the physical appearances of these two men I could easily attribute to the unreliability of eyewitness recollection. Less easy to rationalize are the behavioural inconsistencies. Whereas Church Passage man was calm, composed and patient, Broad Shoulders was clearly under the influence, volatile, aggressive and unconcerned by the fact that his assault on Stride was committed in full view of onlookers. On this basis alone I find it difficult to believe that we are dealing with a single offender.

Hi Garry

But BS Man was not aware of the onlooker until after he had been throwing her about.

Church Passage Man had three men walking in his direction, and he was standing so it would be difficult to notice if he was under the influence.

Even so, as with Grainger and Graham, the mood can change quickly from calm to aggressive.
Sutcliffe would tell the police of the anger that would suddenly well up in him when triggered, in that instance, the combination of his passenger`s cheap perfume and sweat after he had picked the prostitute up.

[Garry Wroe]

It seems that there is some effort being made to suggest that the people seen by Schwartz, according to his statement,...and by Lawende, according to his...are a match for each other. They are not.

Agreed, Mike. That there were contradictions in the physical appearances of these two men I could easily attribute to the unreliability of eyewitness recollection. Less easy to rationalize are the behavioural inconsistencies. Whereas Church Passage man was calm, composed and patient, Broad Shoulders was clearly under the influence, volatile, aggressive and unconcerned by the fact that his assault on Stride was committed in full view of onlookers. On this basis alone I find it difficult to believe that we are dealing with a single offender.

[Garry Wroe]

I'm afraid that point got lost amid the verbiage - what on earth are we disagreeing about then?

The position and location of Stride when her throat was cut. Since the medical evidence makes it clear that the wound was inflicted within the yard on the spot where her body was dicovered, Schwartz could not, as some maintain, have seen the murder taking place. By implication, therefore, the assault that preceded the killing, along with the 'quiet screams' and other factors, would appear to imply that Stride entered the yard with Broad Shoulders consensually, which in turn insinuates that the two had a pre-existing relationship. In other words Stride knew Broad Shoulders but didn't suspect that her life was in imminent danger. Had this not been the case, and had she suspected that she was in company with the man who had previously murdered and mutilated Nichols and Chapman, she would have screamed for all she was worth whilst being manhandled in Berner Street.

[Cogidubnus]

That puzzled me too...

I may be wrong, (and probably am), but I thought Lawende's police statement only said the man was taller than the woman, whilst Levy's said about 3" taller...have I got that right?

Baffled of Bognor
(Dave)

[DVV]

Hi Abby

Mike chooses to quote The Times in preference to the Home Office files or Joseph Hyam Levy.

Cheers

[moonbegger]

Coupled with the fact that if killer at location A moves to a second location B within 1/2 hour, it wouldnt be likely that he would also change or add fashion accessories between the venues.

But it is possible ..

The police have had in their possession a shirt saturated in blood. It is said to have been left in a house in Batty-street after the murders.
The statement has been made that the landlady of the lodging-house, 22, Batty-street - the house in which the shirt was left - was, at an early hour, disturbed by the movements of her lodger, who changed some of his apparel and went away; first, however, instructing her to wash the cast-off shirt by the time he returned.

moonbegger

[Abby Normal]

Hi folks,

It seems that there is some effort being made to suggest that the people seen by Schwartz, according to his statement,...and by Lawende, according to his...are a match for each other. They are not.

"About 30; ht, 5 ft 5 in; comp., fair; hair, dark; small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak."

"Of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak".

The first is the description given by Schwartz, the second by Lawende. I dont have to point out that 4 inches of height difference is substantial and that the second witness described the man as dressed "shabby", which the first witness did not say when describing his "suspect". There is also no mention of the feature that figures most prominently in Israels account...the Broad Shoulders. There is no mention of any kind of physical feature by Lawende that might suggest breadth.

Coupled with the fact that if killer at location A moves to a second location B within 1/2 hour, it wouldnt be likely that he would also change or add fashion accessories between the venues.

Schwartz did not describe the man Lawende saw, but Lawende didnt necessarily see his man as well as his description suggests..he stated he would not recognize the man if he saw him again within 2 weeks of that statement.

Which makes the belief he was some star witness pulled out to view lineups a few times over the next few years somewhat curious.

Best regards,

5 ft. 9in. ???

[DVV]

Rough looking dock worker, exactly Greg.
And you should not rule out the most likely, indeed.

Cheers

[GregBaron]

Rough looking dock worker...

Sorry Michael but these are close enough given the notorious unreliability of eyewitness testimony and also the lighting conditions and other blurring factors.

Also, Levy had the Mitre Sq. man at 5’3” and I know there’s a report of 5’7”. These are trifles. Not everyone notices things like broad shoulders and perhaps they were obscured by the woman. Peaked cap and fair may be the most telling points.

I’m not necessarily saying BS killed Stride and then moved to Mitre Square but I don’t think you can rule it out based on these questionable descriptions…


Greg

[Michael W Richards]

Hi folks,

It seems that there is some effort being made to suggest that the people seen by Schwartz, according to his statement,...and by Lawende, according to his...are a match for each other. They are not.

"About 30; ht, 5 ft 5 in; comp., fair; hair, dark; small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak."

"Of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak".

The first is the description given by Schwartz, the second by Lawende. I dont have to point out that 4 inches of height difference is substantial and that the second witness described the man as dressed "shabby", which the first witness did not say when describing his "suspect". There is also no mention of the feature that figures most prominently in Israels account...the Broad Shoulders. There is no mention of any kind of physical feature by Lawende that might suggest breadth.

Coupled with the fact that if killer at location A moves to a second location B within 1/2 hour, it wouldnt be likely that he would also change or add fashion accessories between the venues.

Schwartz did not describe the man Lawende saw, but Lawende didnt necessarily see his man as well as his description suggests..he stated he would not recognize the man if he saw him again within 2 weeks of that statement.

Which makes the belief he was some star witness pulled out to view lineups a few times over the next few years somewhat curious.

Best regards,

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Yo GB

Stride was also dispatched quickly. This is a ripper MO. Most domestics
are drawn out affairs meant to prolong suffering....this was anything but...
I wonder how many Whitechapel men could lie a victim down and slit a throat with such swift skill.........?


Greg[/QUOTE]

That's an aspect that I think gets thrown to the wayside with too much ease it seems. Thanks.

[Phil H]

I'm afraid that point got lost amid the verbiage - what on earth are we disagreeing about then?

Phil

[Garry Wroe]

How can you agree with me when I believe it 75% likely that Stride was NOT a Ripper victim.

Had you bothered to read my posts, Phil, you'd know that I've been questioning the notion of Stride as a Ripper victim for nigh on twenty-five years.

[Phil H]

You are being contrary, Garry.

We clearly disagree on the issues, whether it is i with you or you with me, is hardly important.

How can you agree with me when I believe it 75% likely that Stride was NOT a Ripper victim.

I have cited my reasons 9evidence0 frequently. You do not accept that - but why should that worry me? I have simply stated my conclusions. End of story and I see no point in further debate between us, unless on issues, not my conclusions. I think we are too far apart and you too inflexible for a concensus to be reached.

Phil

[Garry Wroe]

There is no need for me to re-evaluate the evidence, Garry, for two reasons:

a) I already did and arrived at a conclusion with which you disagree

Forgive me, Phil, but it was you who disagreed with my contention that Stride's throat could not have been cut during the street fracas witnessed by Schwartz.

b) I do not rule out Stride as a Ripper victim, I simply do not lean so strongly in that direction as I once did. I'd say it was a 75% against situation.

You'll get no argument from me on that score.

I might equally as well turn around and suggest you re-evaluate the evidence. It is your certainty with which I disagree, not your right to draw any conclusions you wish. Reject mine though you will, mine are still evidentially based and as valid (on that basis) as any others

That's my point, though, Phil. Your position isn't supported by the available evidence. Had Stride's throat been cut during the altercation observed by Schwartz, blood from the throat wound would have run down her chest (towards her feet) as she walked, staggered or crawled to the spot inside the yard on which her body was discovered. The same would apply even if she'd been dragged to this locus by Broad Shoulders. And yet, despite careful examination by several doctors, no such evidence was discovered. The evidence insinuated that the throat had been incised whilst Stride lay in the position she maintained when Diemschutz chanced upon the body. In other words the injury was sustained whilst she was in the yard and lying on the ground.