Sequence of comings & goings - Stride

[Herlock Sholmes]

DN, Oct 3:

Mr. W. Wess, Secretary of the International Working Men's Club, Berner-street, called at our office at midnight and made the following statement:-It having come to my knowledge that the man who was seen by Mrs. Mortimer, of 36, Berner-street, passing her house "carrying a black shiny bag," who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road about the time the murder was supposed to have occurred, was a member of the club, I immediately went with him, between 10 and 11 to-night, to the Leman-street Police-station, where he made a statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening which was completely satisfactory.

According to who, and about what time was the murder supposed to have occurred?

Is this the statement that had been used to suggest that Wess was possibly Schwartz interpreter or is there another reason for that suggestion?

[Michael W Richards]

It appears to be ok to ask “how come she heard the horse and cart at 1.00 and yet she didn’t hear the Schwartz incident?”

But not to ask “how come she heard a horse and cart at 1.00 but not at 12.35?”

The answer is very simple Herlock, she was at her door at 1am, and when she went in she would be in the front room of the house. Her sleeping quarters would be in the back of the house. Who can say whether she was back in her bedroom when Louis actually arrives.

Both you and Caz like to reimagine events to feel better about your conclusions, but one bit of evidence that you overlook should enlighten you about the veracity of some claims.....Louis provably did not arrive "precisely at 1" as he claimed. He was specific. And therefore provably wrong when considering a street eyewitness in the 10 minutes leading up to that time and including 1am...precisely.

Did he make a mistake? Or did he lie. Ive made my choice and have evidence for it, you have to prove Fanny wasnt capable of seeing or hearing a cart and horse arrive "precisely" at 1. Check.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I haven’t mentioned Smith arriving before Lamb. In fact in the timeline I did I wrote:

“According to Smith he gets back to Berner Street around 1.00 but, as Lamb was already there it must have been nearer to 1.07”


My time 1.07 for Lamb’s arrival is not exact (my use of the word ‘around’ was the clue.) So it may have been slightly earlier.

Smith said that at 1.00 he went into Berner Street. But as we cannot be exact as to the time that he actually arrived it is possible at it might have been later. I also confirmed in my timeline that Lamb was already there when Smith arrived.


And the phrase should be ‘admirable humility’ not ‘admiral.’ This is a mistake. You should learn to recognise them before indulging in an ego-driven attempt to find them in others.

This is what you last said regarding Smith vs Mortimer's times...

I’ve also gone for Smith’s time of passing as opposed to Mortimer’s time of 12.45 on the grounds that Mortimer had no reason for accurately logging the time on (up until the disturbance at the club) a perfectly normal evening. We also can’t be anything like certain that she owned a clock. A Police Officer on a regulated beat passes the same landmarks at approximately the same time numerous times on any given day/night and so would have a better general idea of the time. It’s also possible that he passed a clock or clocks that aided him in calculating the time at any point. He would also, I assume, be ‘tuned in’ to the various chimes in the area (business clocks and churches). He also had a reason to be time aware (as opposed to FM) as he would have to make reports of serious incidents for which a time would be important. And so while we cannot be certain, Smith is fairly obviously the more likely to have been correct.

Fine, and these are good points you make.
Regarding his beat, Smith says:

It takes me from 25 minutes to half an hour to go round my beat.

This is your time for Smith passing Stride and companion...

PC Smith walks along Berner Street at around 12.33 and sees Stride with a man.

Now 25-30 minutes is going to return Smith to the same point at about 1am (when he next comes down Berner street).
So here are the arrival times you give for Lamb and Smith...

Eagle, Kozebrodski, Lamb and Collins arrive at around1.07.

According to Smith he gets back to Berner Street around 1.00 but, as Lamb was already there it must have been nearer to 1.07 (if he’d originally passed at 12.35 and his route could take 30 minutes or so then this is about right). He goes for an ambulance as Johnston arrived at around 1.13.

Smith must arrive a few minutes or more after Lamb and 426H (not Collins), because he does not hear any running or shouting...

I saw a crowd of people outside the gates of No. 40. I did not hear any cries of "Police." When I got there I saw constables 12 H R and 252 H.

So if Lamb arrives at 1:07 (as per your timeline), Smith is not getting there until 1:10 at the earliest, perhaps more like 1:12, but let's say 1:11.
Yet Smith is quite clear about his timings...

I was last in Berner-street about half-past 12 or 12:35. At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round.

There is no reason to suppose that Smith's last beat before going to the yard was outside of the normal time parameters.
Yet you have somehow managed to 'find' about 11 minutes.
That equates to about 40% of Smith's beat's mean timespan!
The only reason you give is that 'as Lamb was already there it must have been nearer to 1.07' - but that is not an indication that Smith took ~11 minutes longer than usual to go around - rather its an indication that you've made a mistake.
If you want to claim that Smith was delayed, you have to show evidence, but his testimony does not support this.

Timelines cannot be built by assuming anomalies in bobbies' beats, for which there is no evidence, simply to make things 'fit'.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The answer is very simple Herlock, she was at her door at 1am, and when she went in she would be in the front room of the house. Her sleeping quarters would be in the back of the house. Who can say whether she was back in her bedroom when Louis actually arrives.

Both you and Caz like to reimagine events to feel better about your conclusions, but one bit of evidence that you overlook should enlighten you about the veracity of some claims.....Louis provably did not arrive "precisely at 1" as he claimed. He was specific. And therefore provably wrong when considering a street eyewitness in the 10 minutes leading up to that time and including 1am...precisely.

Did he make a mistake? Or did he lie. Ive made my choice and have evidence for it, you have to prove Fanny wasnt capable of seeing or hearing a cart and horse arrive "precisely" at 1. Check.

Im surprised to say the least at that response Michael because I’ve previously suggested exactly the same thing in response to the question “why didn’t she hear the Schwartz incident.” So why is this a satisfactory explanation for her not hearing one thing but not a satisfactory explanation for not hearing another?

[Herlock Sholmes]

#318
Today, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
I haven’t mentioned Smith arriving before Lamb. In fact in the timeline I did I wrote:

“According to Smith he gets back to Berner Street around 1.00 but, as Lamb was already there it must have been nearer to 1.07”


My time 1.07 for Lamb’s arrival is not exact (my use of the word ‘around’ was the clue.) So it may have been slightly earlier.

Smith said that at 1.00 he went into Berner Street. But as we cannot be exact as to the time that he actually arrived it is possible at it might have been later. I also confirmed in my timeline that Lamb was already there when Smith arrived.


And the phrase should be ‘admirable humility’ not ‘admiral.’ This is a mistake. You should learn to recognise them before indulging in an ego-driven attempt to find them in others.
This is what you last said regarding Smith vs Mortimer's times...

I did not state that Smith arrived before Lamb which is what you accused me of.

Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
I’ve also gone for Smith’s time of passing as opposed to Mortimer’s time of 12.45 on the grounds that Mortimer had no reason for accurately logging the time on (up until the disturbance at the club) a perfectly normal evening. We also can’t be anything like certain that she owned a clock. A Police Officer on a regulated beat passes the same landmarks at approximately the same time numerous times on any given day/night and so would have a better general idea of the time. It’s also possible that he passed a clock or clocks that aided him in calculating the time at any point. He would also, I assume, be ‘tuned in’ to the various chimes in the area (business clocks and churches). He also had a reason to be time aware (as opposed to FM) as he would have to make reports of serious incidents for which a time would be important. And so while we cannot be certain, Smith is fairly obviously the more likely to have been correct.
Fine, and these are good points you make.
Regarding his beat, Smith says:

It takes me from 25 minutes to half an hour to go round my beat.

This is your time for Smith passing Stride and companion...

PC Smith walks along Berner Street at around 12.33 and sees Stride with a man.
Now 25-30 minutes is going to return Smith to the same point at about 1am (when he next comes down Berner street).
So here are the arrival times you give for Lamb and Smith...

Eagle, Kozebrodski, Lamb and Collins arrive at around1.07.

Ive also said on numerous occasions that we cannot be exact as to times. We know that certain posters have claimed for example that Mortimer owned a clock but there’s no evidence of this but I take the view that most, including PC’s didn’t. I’ve already demonstrated that I have no issue in admitting errors - unlike some. I now know that it wasn’t Collins that returned with Lamb for example. I made an error. My 1.07 time for Lamb’s return is an approximation. I also know that a PC’s route doesn’t always take exactly the same time (the PC may have been stopped by a member of the public for example or he may have had to deal with an incident.) So perhaps Lamb returned nearer to 1.05 and Smith’s beat took 31 0r 32 minutes getting him to Dutfield’s Yard at 1.06 or 1.07? Or perhaps he passed the first time at 12.37 and his route took 30 minutes. None of these are stretches of the imagination or falsifications of what we’ve been told.

According to Smith he gets back to Berner Street around 1.00 but, as Lamb was already there it must have been nearer to 1.07 (if he’d originally passed at 12.35 and his route could take 30 minutes or so then this is about right). He goes for an ambulance as Johnston arrived at around 1.13.
Smith must arrive a few minutes or more after Lamb and 426H (not Collins), because he does not hear any running or shouting...

I saw a crowd of people outside the gates of No. 40. I did not hear any cries of "Police." When I got there I saw constables 12 H R and 252 H.

So if Lamb arrives at 1:07 (as per your timeline), Smith is not getting there until 1:10 at the earliest, perhaps more like 1:12, but let's say 1:11.
Yet Smith is quite clear about his timings...

I was last in Berner-street about half-past 12 or 12:35. At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round.

There are no hard and fast rules of course but I’d say that it’s reasonable to treat all times as + or - 5 minutes or so (unless we have a specific reason for confidence like with Dr Blackwell)

There is no reason to suppose that Smith's last beat before going to the yard was outside of the normal time parameters.
Yet you have somehow managed to 'find' about 11 minutes.
That equates to about 40% of Smith's beat's mean timespan!
The only reason you give is that 'as Lamb was already there it must have been nearer to 1.07' - but that is not an indication that Smith took ~11 minutes longer than usual to go around - rather its an indication that you've made a mistake.
If you want to claim that Smith was delayed, you have to show evidence, but his testimony does not support this.

Not at all. Why are you suddenly suggesting that Smith must have been exact in his timing? He doesn’t have to be 11 minutes out as Lamb could have arrived a little before 1.07. Times have to be juggled as we can’t assume exactness at a time when the vast majority didn’t own watches. If Smith arrived at, say, 1.06 and Lamb had arrived seconds earlier it fits.

Smith takes from 12.35 to 1.07 which means 32 minutes with Lamb arriving seconds before him.
Smith takes from 12.36 to 1.07 which means 31 minutes with Lamb arriving just before him.

These aren’t massive leaps. They are entirely possible.

Timelines cannot be built by assuming anomalies in bobbies' beats, for which there is no evidence, simply to make things 'fit'.

Nor can we assume exactness, when people largely didn’t own watches, just to make a point. I always, always look at things honestly. If I make a mistake I admit it. Again, unlike some.

[Herlock Sholmes]

So if Lamb arrives at 1:07 (as per your timeline), Smith is not getting there until 1:10 at the earliest, perhaps more like 1:12, but let's say 1:11.
Yet Smith is quite clear about his timings

Why the exaggeration? Why are you assuming such a gap of time between Lamb’s arrival and Smith’s (apart from for dramatic effect of course?) Smith could have arrived a minute or even a matter of seconds after Lamb.

[FrankO]

The answer is very simple Herlock, she was at her door at 1am, and when she went in she would be in the front room of the house. Her sleeping quarters would be in the back of the house. Who can say whether she was back in her bedroom when Louis actually arrives.

According to the Daily News, Micheal, her bedroom seems to have been in the front room.

"Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor,.."

Louis provably did not arrive "precisely at 1" as he claimed. He was specific.

Reading all the different versions of his statement, it seems clear that he said that he "noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street. It was one o'clock." This fits with what a number of newspapers wrote: "reaching Berner-street at 1 o'clock." From the corner of Berner Street to Dutfield's Yard were some 112 meters and if he rode his pony cart at a speed of 15 km/hr, he would have turned into the yard at 1:00:27... precisely. Which would still be one o'clock.

And therefore provably wrong when considering a street eyewitness in the 10 minutes leading up to that time and including 1am...precisely.

Didn't she say (but in only one version): "nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this morning"? Nearly the whole time between can also, for instance, be from 12:35 until 12:57, can it not? So, where did she say that it included 1 am... precisely? And doesn't the version that actually has her standing on her doorstep for 10 minutes has her go back inside some four minutes before she hears a pony cart pass her house?

[Michael W Richards]

According to the Daily News, Micheal, her bedroom seems to have been in the front room.

"Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor,.."

And having her front door lead directly into a bedroom makes sense to who?...

Reading all the different versions of his statement, it seems clear that he said that he "noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street. It was one o'clock." This fits with what a number of newspapers wrote: "reaching Berner-street at 1 o'clock." From the corner of Berner Street to Dutfield's Yard were some 112 meters and if he rode his pony cart at a speed of 15 km/hr, he would have turned into the yard at 1:00:27... precisely. Which would still be one o'clock.

Sure. So how coime Fanny at her door continuously for the last 10 minutes of the hour...she went in just after 1...doesnt see or hea any cart arrive during that 10 minutes? Does he have a turbo cart? And "precisely", his words, is provably wrong by Fannys statement.

Didn't she say (but in only one version): "nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this morning"? Nearly the whole time between can also, for instance, be from 12:35 until 12:57, can it not? So, where did she say that it included 1 am... precisely? And doesn't the version that actually has her standing on her doorstep for 10 minutes has her go back inside some four minutes before she hears a pony cart pass her house?


She say she was at her door off and on from 12:30 until 1...nearly the whole time refers to sporadic visits to her door before 12:50. She establishes she was at the door from 12:50 until just after 1. And since no-one seems to pay attention to details, where is the cart and horse when the police arrive? Did they take them on to George Yard for stabling....might that be what she heard?

There is no defensible argument that explains his absolute use of an arrival time. There is one for suggesting he didnt arrive from 12:50 until just after 1.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Mortimer also said to the Evening News that she’d gone onto her doorstep at just after 12.45 (meaning that she had been inside before that) remained on her doorstep for around 10 minutes and then went back inside. Surely if she’d been on her doorstep before then but after 12.30 she would have mentioned it because it was within the time frame that she was talking about? Therefore, according to that report, she spent no more that 10 minutes on her doorstep between 12.30 and 1.00.

We can also point out of course that Smith would have been unlikely to have been that far out in his estimation of what time he first passed along Berner Street. He said 12.30-12.35. Fanny said 12.45. Who of the two is likelier to have been the more accurate? A woman having a perfectly run of the mill evening with no cause to log the time (and of course we have absolutely no evidence that she owned a clock) or a police officer on his beat? A man who passes the same landmarks at pretty much the same time several times a night? A man who would pass clocks and no doubt be aware of clock chimes so that he could at least give a reasonable time for any incident that he might have to report?

Fanny Mortimer is hardly a reliable prop to base a theory around. There really isn’t a smidgeon of reliable evidence to suggest that Stride’s body was discovered earlier. Your 4 witness transparent don’t tie up and I fail to see how you can expect everyone else to be blind to this obvious fact too. It crumbles in various ways but I’ll pick a very obvious one.

James Brown saw his couple at 12.45. 15 minutes after he arrived back home he heard the cries of police and murder. He said that they were from someone moving in the direction of Grove Street so more than likely Diemschutz and Kozebrodski. This would have been just after 1.00 which ties up perfectly with Diemschutz story. So how could Spooner have arrived at the yard before all this happened? He couldn’t have and he didn’t.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Why are you suddenly suggesting that Smith must have been exact in his timing?

I've never claimed anyone was exact - especially not Louis Diemschitz.

My understanding of Smith's timings...

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/suspects/general-suspect-discussion/743972-stride-a-victim?p=747878#post747878

Why the exaggeration? Why are you assuming such a gap of time between Lamb’s arrival and Smith’s (apart from for dramatic effect of course?) Smith could have arrived a minute or even a matter of seconds after Lamb.

Because of the time it takes Smith to walk (at beat pace) from Comm Rd. to #40 Berner, and another reason...

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/suspects/general-suspect-discussion/743972-stride-a-victim?p=747929#post747929

[Herlock Sholmes]

I've never claimed anyone was exact - especially not Louis Diemschitz.

My understanding of Smith's timings...

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/suspects/general-suspect-discussion/743972-stride-a-victim?p=747878#post747878

Because of the time it takes Smith to walk (at beat pace) from Comm Rd. to #40 Berner, and another reason...

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/suspects/general-suspect-discussion/743972-stride-a-victim?p=747929#post747929

I still don’t understand why you are suggesting an arrival time of 1.11 for Smiths arrival in Berner Street?

Im just looking at it in a very simple way. Smith said that Lamb was already there when he arrived. Lamb said that he was in Commercial Road about 1.00 as far as he could tell. Smith said that he went to Berner Street at 1.00 (which is an unhelpful way of putting of course as you’ve mentioned in the other posts)

Obviously no one is suggesting that either of these two were lying but we should be able to apply a bit of leeway given that they were estimating and to allow for error. My time of 1.07 for Lamb certainly wasn’t intended to imply a cast iron certainty but it couldn’t have been far away.

Smith said that his route took 25-30 minutes and that he was last in Berner Street at 12.30-12.35. So....either Lamb got back quicker than my estimation (which I didn’t base on any calculations btw) or Smith got there slightly later than he estimated or a combination of both.

.......

So if Eagle set off to look for a Constable at say 1.02 what would be the quickest time for him to get to Lamb and then return to the yard (he said that he was running of course?) Smith could then have arrived 30 seconds later?

......

A question on wording.

When I got there I saw Constables 12 H. R and 252 H.

He doesn’t actually say that they were already there although of course it’s a reasonable assumption. But we know the issues with wording so could he have seen Lamb and co coming along Berner Street as he arrived at the yard?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes. And it is interesting that he didn't mention seeing them there on his way to the shop. Suggesting that they only arrived there in the few minutes while he was buying his supper.

According to the Tele, Brown seems to have last looked at the time at 12:10...

When I had nearly finished my supper I heard screams of "Murder" and "Police." This was a quarter of an hour after I had got home. I did not look at any clock at the chandler's shop. I arrived home first at ten minutes past twelve o'clock, and I believe it was not raining then.

If he got home from the shop at 12:50, then he is hearing the screams at about 1:05, which is about as late as they could have possibly been, if not later.
On the hand, if he actually reached the chandlers shop a bit earlier, say 12:40, then the board school couple arrive by 12:45.

Some might claim that Brown contradicts Schwartz, but I think Brown estimated too late, just as others estimated too early.
However, if Brown did estimate too late, then the couple are going to be on the board school corner by the time Schwartz claimed to turn into Berner street.

We should expect a mix of early and late time estimates.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don't know. My name's not Blackwell. But if we take his words at face value, his best guess was that Stride had been dead for a maximum of 20 minutes when he pronounced life extinct, but he allowed for up to a possible maximum of 30 minutes.

TOD estimates were not reliable, but at the most basic level Stride died at some point between 12.46 and when she was pronounced dead.

So Blackwell suggested a ToD range from about a quarter to one, to 5 to one, but leaned toward the later.
He also suggested...

Deceased would take about a minute and a half to bleed to death.

So the time of murder approximates to about 12:50.

Indeed, Herlock.

If the argument is that the Schwartz incident around 12.45 never happened because Fanny would surely have seen or heard something of it, then the same goes for this:

Witness Three - Abraham Hoschberg

“It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter. In the gateway two or three people had collected,”

The fact is, Fanny saw and heard no signs of any such commotion going on that early, and neither did Goldstein when she saw him pass by. All the reliable evidence points to the alarm being raised promptly on the pony and cart's arrival, around 1am, the sounds of which alerted Fanny and caused her to open up again to see what the commotion was all about.

The witness was simply out on his estimated time by - ooh - 'about' fifteen minutes, 'I should think', because, by his own admission, he had not looked at a clock to note the time.

Love,

Caz
X

Nor had Fanny recently looked at a clock, as far as we know.
Therefore, I should think the most prudent thing to do, would be to suppose that Hershburg was 7½ minutes early, and Mortimer 7½ minutes late, in their respective estimates.
That would mean they were alerted to the situation at about 12:55.

When Fanny entered the yard, Ed Spooner was already there.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Lamb did say PC 426 though - do we have a name for him Frank?

According to Neil Bell (Monty), 426H was William Ayliffe

[Herlock Sholmes]

According to Neil Bell (Monty), 426H was William Ayliffe

Cheers for that.