Diemschutz arrival

[Tom_Wescott]

Glengarry GlenTurdburger

Michael is stirring trouble. I have demonstrated before that there was no young couple anywhere on the street at 12:45, and he knows this. Fanny Mortimer spoke with a woman after the body had been found, and this woman said she had been out there with her man earlier. This young woman was later interviewed and stated it was much earlier than 12:45 that she and her man were out walking.

The couple that James Brown saw were most likely Stride and another man, quite possibly Pipeman, given the timing and the coat.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

James Brown:
"....the man had a long coat on, which came very nearly down to his heels. I believe it was an overcoat...... I could not say what kind of cap he had on,.....the man was about 5ft 7in in height. He appeared to be stoutish built.

Israel Schwartz:
"...He says he was taller than the other, but not so stout, and that his moustaches were red.....
Second man age 35, ht. 5ft 11in. Comp. Fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress, dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand."

There isn't whole lot of common detail to go on, even if we accept "stoutish" for "not so stout". And, wearing an overcoat at night was not so unique for that time of year.
There isn't enough to declare them to be the same man, but neither can we say with any confidence they were not. Again its purely a matter of preference.

Regards, Jon S.

[Colin Roberts]

Delete!

Wrong Thread

[Cogidubnus]

Michael is stirring trouble. I have demonstrated before that there was no young couple anywhere on the street at 12:45, and he knows this.

You say it's so Tom...but with respect you also claimed Errata was only 1/8 Jewish (and haven't had the common courtesy to apologise for that crashing gaffe yet) so who should I be believing, Michael, a correspondent I've personally always found courteous, or yourself who resorts all too readily to the "Turdburger"?

Just asking...

All the best

Dave

[Michael W Richards]

I was going to comment on Toms need to rebut arguments with childlike petulance, but thanks for doing so for me Dave.

I didnt say that the young couple were on the street Tom, I posted a press piece that stated the young woman said she and her man were at the intersection, not 50 yards from the Berner Gates, about 20-25 minutes before they heard the "alarm" from the club.

If it was 20 minutes, then that puts her and her young man where Brown saw a couple at the time he says he saw one,..again, without any color on either of them. It also suggests the young couple remained in the vicinity, perhaps not on the same spot, until the alarm was sounded. Yet they heard or saw no Israel Schwartz altercation, or anyone fleeing, nor did they mention hearing or seeing an approaching cart.

Neither did Fanny...yet she could hear something as benign as bootsteps while not at her door.

Best regards

[Michael W Richards]

Witnesses estimates of time

Hi again,

I think we need to clarify what kind of filter can be applied to these witnesses to sort out who among them had the best chance of an accurate guess on the time... within a 5 minute range lets say.

I believe witnesses that gave statements that had access to clocks or timepieces at 12:30am or later can be considered potentially valid accounts. Unless they had some reason to manufacture a time. Issues like Spooner are harder to rely on due to the fact that he made his way to the Beehive from the closed pub leisurely, so I believe his last reliable time was at the pub as it closed. But his guesstimate of the time does roughly coincide with Issac Kozebrodski's time given within the hour of the event, and Heschbergs time. And both of those members times disagree with the Israel Schwartz story, and both came from inside the club where clocks would have been visible. If Liz Stride was cut near the earliest time estimated then Spooner would not have still seen blood flowing if he arrived in the passageway using the times Louis provides, sometime shortly after 1am.

Fanny was in her house, presumably, she had a timepiece she referred to there. PC Smith had a watch. Brown had a clock to refer to.

Louis also had a clock available to him to mark a time in stone.

What happens quite often in these discussions is a disregard for times given by some witnesses based on the assumption that few had watches or could properly estimate the time. However, if someone is asked what transpired 45 minutes earlier and they have a fixed point in time to reference, then they likely can recall events and actions quite accurately...if thats their intention.

Cheers

[Wickerman]

Hi again,

I think we need to clarify what kind of filter can be applied to these witnesses to sort out who among them had the best chance of an accurate guess on the time... within a 5 minute range lets say.

I believe witnesses that gave statements that had access to clocks or timepieces at 12:30am or later can be considered potentially valid accounts. Unless they had some reason to manufacture a time. Issues like Spooner are harder to rely on due to the fact that he made his way to the Beehive from the closed pub leisurely, so I believe his last reliable time was at the pub as it closed. But his guesstimate of the time does roughly coincide with Issac Kozebrodski's time given within the hour of the event, and Heschbergs time. And both of those members times disagree with the Israel Schwartz story, and both came from inside the club where clocks would have been visible. If Liz Stride was cut near the earliest time estimated then Spooner would not have still seen blood flowing if he arrived in the passageway using the times Louis provides, sometime shortly after 1am.

Fanny was in her house, presumably, she had a timepiece she referred to there. PC Smith had a watch. Brown had a clock to refer to.

Louis also had a clock available to him to mark a time in stone.

Reviewing the many reports of what Diemschitz says, it is not clear where he was at precisely 1:00 am.
In most cases we think he entered the yard at 1:00, but he clearly acknowledges only seeing the time as he passed Harris's Tobacconist shop up on Commercial Rd, seconds if not minutes earlier.

"....and returned home exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street. It was one o'clock."
I.P.N. 6 Oct.

We can see Diemschitz (or the reporter), does not distinguish between passing Harris's shop at 1:00, and pulling into Dutfields Yard at 1:00.
Admittedly, there is only a short time difference between the two, but 1:00 at Harris's shop could translate to 1:01 or 1:02 at Dutfields Yard, and that is assuming Harris's clock was correct.

Diemschitz arriving a little after 1:00 would be more consistent with PC Smiths estimate of him passing the top of Berner St. at 1:00 before he was called by witnesses.

Therefore, even though you say Louis's time is marked in stone, it is only at best, the time he passed Harris's shop.

Regards, Jon S.

[Michael W Richards]

Reviewing the many reports of what Diemschitz says, it is not clear where he was at precisely 1:00 am.
In most cases we think he entered the yard at 1:00, but he clearly acknowledges only seeing the time as he passed Harris's Tobacconist shop up on Commercial Rd, seconds if not minutes earlier.

"....and returned home exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street. It was one o'clock."
I.P.N. 6 Oct.

We can see Diemschitz (or the reporter), does not distinguish between passing Harris's shop at 1:00, and pulling into Dutfields Yard at 1:00.
Admittedly, there is only a short time difference between the two, but 1:00 at Harris's shop could translate to 1:01 or 1:02 at Dutfields Yard, and that is assuming Harris's clock was correct.

Diemschitz arriving a little after 1:00 would be more consistent with PC Smiths estimate of him passing the top of Berner St. at 1:00 before he was called by witnesses.

Therefore, even though you say Louis's time is marked in stone, it is only at best, the time he passed Harris's shop.

Regards, Jon S.

Hi Jon,

Actually, I didnt endorse Louis's timing, I only said "Louis also had a clock available to him to mark a time in stone."

I said it that way because Louis actually had the opportunity to choose a time and use the clock as a reference point to validate his claim,...but in reality we have no way of knowing precisely when he arrived home. We have only his word on that.

Something Ive been trying to contest.

Cheers Jon