Diemschutz arrival

[Michael W Richards]

I liked Simons follow up post to my last one.

Jon,

In fact the club need not have anything to hide, related to the murder or anything else nefarious that they may have been involved with at the time. They were already being watched because they were assumed to be a club harboring Anarchists, not just Socialists. A murder on their property meant that the police could use whatever reputation they had cultivated to that point in time as a reason for suspecting their involvement in the crime.

Its not like the police just took anyone's word for anything, they searched the members, the cottages and the club and interviewed all that were in attendance. The men at the club knew this made their situation worse, how much worse could be controlled...with a few minutes to "think" before setting out for help.

Tom, Fanny does say in at least one account that she was at the door from around 12:50 until 1.

Cheers

[Jon Guy]

Michael

A murder on their property meant that the police could use whatever reputation they had cultivated to that point in time as a reason for suspecting their involvement in the crime.

Well, there was a murder on their property.

Did the police suspect the club or it`s members of murder?

No.

[Observer]

Hi Jon

In answer to your post 434,


There is not one iota of evidence which suggests that any club member stumbled upon Liz Stride's body prior to Deimshutz discovery of said body. Not a shred. Indeed, those members of the club who ran to get help post 1 a.m. seemed genuinely agitated, which would indicate to me they had only just viewed the body of Liz Stride. Of course the "cranksters", among us will no doubt suggest they were merely very good actors !

Regards

Observer

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Jon

In answer to your post 434,


There is not one iota of evidence which suggests that any club member stumbled upon Liz Stride's body prior to Deimshutz discovery of said body. Not a shred. Indeed, those members of the club who ran to get help post 1 a.m. seemed genuinely agitated, which would indicate to me they had only just viewed the body of Liz Stride. Of course the "cranksters", among us will no doubt suggest they were merely very good actors !

Regards

Observer

Hi Observer,

The issue isnt whether Diemshitz "stumbled" across Liz first,.. he may well have, but at what time he did that is in contention.

You have also completely disregarded more than 3 witnesses who within an hour of the murder said they were notified of the body before 12:45am, 2 of which were club members. One is assumed to have accompanied Louis when he says he left for help after 1am....Isaac Kozebrodski. However, in Isaacs own words, again, within 1 hour of the murder, he says that he arrived back at the club at "half past 12", and about 10 minutes later was called into the passageway to see the body. He also stated that he "was sent" alone to search for help, and arrived back in time to see Eagle and the Police arrive.

The reason Isaac and Louis's stories wouldnt jive? Isaac was gone while the management were making some "timing decisions" and wasnt aware that the agreed upon story was going to have the yard empty and Louis arriving just after 1am.

If Isaac Kozebrodski is to believed, and Heschberg, who gave the same timing of being called to the passageway, and Spooner, whose story and approximate travel and loiter times have him accompanying Louis and someone in through the gates before 12:45am, then by default....Eagle is lying about at least the timing and his return, Lave is lying about what was going on in the passageway, and Louis is lying about what time he arrived and what happened then.

Lets face it, if these men found the body just after 1am, which follows Louis's story, and after Louis looks for his wife the club men were summoned to the passageway to see the body,... as many members stated, and then took the routes they say they took for help, then it would have to have been later than 1:10am for the first police to arrive onsite. They wouldnt have even left the yard until around that time.

Being reasonable, some confusion and some degree of panic might prohibit some immediate action. That time could have been spent formulating a best case story as relates to the club and its members.

My problem is at what time the actual discovery was made.

Cheers

[Jon Guy]

Thanks for that, Observer. I thought I`d missed something.

The only suspicious thing I can think of, which never gets mentioned, was that whilst searching the Club following the murder, PC Lamb (or was it Smith) found Diemshitz messing about behind the stage, upstairs in the concert room. Stashing the knife ? :-)

[Observer]

Hi mike

So Deimshutx was part of the intrigue ?

And I think you're being far too generous regarding the time allotted between the discovery of the body and the time at which Deimshutz and others set out to seek help. I'd half your 10 minute suggestion, and if you are familiar with the location and environs of the International Working Men's Educatonal Club, I think you'll agree it was perfectly feasible for officers to have been on the scene at the time they stated at inquest should Deimshutz and the others had left the yard to seek help at 1:05 a.m.

As for Kozebrodski, I believe he merely got his timings wrong, to be fair he wasn't the only one guilty of this act.

Regards

Observer

[Observer]

Thanks for that, Observer. I thought I`d missed something.

The only suspicious thing I can think of, which never gets mentioned, was that whilst searching the Club following the murder, PC Lamb (or was it Smith) found Diemshitz messing about behind the stage, upstairs in the concert room. Stashing the knife ? :-)

Shush Jon you'll open the flood-gates ! I think it's been mentioned before though. Although I have to say that William Wess admitted to handling some literature shortly before leaving for home. Was he the individual, I wonder, as observed by PC Smith holding a parcel wrapped in newspaper talking to Liz Stride at 12:35 ?

Regards

Observer

[c.d.]

So exactly what kind of fallout did the Club experience from this murder on their very doorstep? Was there any talk of closing them down? Further investigations of club members? Angry editorials in the newspapers? Mobs with torches and pitchforks?

"Hey, Bob, bring out contingency plan number 23."

It seems to me that their best course of action was to cooperate completely with the police rather than attempt some half ass plan concocted on the spur of the moment which could backfire and blow up in their faces.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

delay

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"What delay?"

From 12.45 until about 12.55.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Search me?

Hello (again) Jon. Thanks.

"Well, there was a murder on their property."

Indeed.

"Did the police suspect the club or its members of murder?"

Before or after their painstaking search?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Tell you what let's do . . .

Hello CD. I think that is what happened. But as the RESULT of a bit of deliberation.

No big deal, really.

Cheers.
LC

[sleekviper]

Wait a second, on the very same night evidence is erased after being written down for what reason? So if Warren has a concern over a group of individuals, why would that group also not have a concern over their welfare in this not too ordinary period in time? Lynn may have a point, the actions of Warren sure seem to make it highly feasible.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi again,

Ok....I have a question I would appreciate help with.

Question...what was the standard width of a horse drawn cart like the kind Louis would have been using? He said he was stopping to offload some goods that didnt sell at the market.

You see, I dont believe that having only 1 gate open, (a little over 4 feet wide), would suffice for his being able to enter the passageway and then the yard with his pony and cart, and as we know, from the street only the right hand gate was ajar and not completely...Liz would have been partially obscured by it to anyone passing by. I surmise he must have got down and opened the other half of the gates before he could enter that space....and have his pony "shie" left.

Thanks for any help, I havent been able to find info on the dimensions.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi mike

So Deimshutx was part of the intrigue ?

And I think you're being far too generous regarding the time allotted between the discovery of the body and the time at which Deimshutz and others set out to seek help. I'd half your 10 minute suggestion, and if you are familiar with the location and environs of the International Working Men's Educatonal Club, I think you'll agree it was perfectly feasible for officers to have been on the scene at the time they stated at inquest should Deimshutz and the others had left the yard to seek help at 1:05 a.m.

As for Kozebrodski, I believe he merely got his timings wrong, to be fair he wasn't the only one guilty of this act.

Regards

Observer

Hi Observer,

Louis and Morris worked for the club, Morris spoke that night and Louis was the Club Steward. My suggestion that they might lie to protect the club is founded on that principle...that only club management would be making these kinds of decisions.

As for Isaac, he was sure he arrived back at the club at 12:30 and he thought no more than 10 minutes had passed before he got word....and this was his recollection of events within 1 hour of their transpiring. I dont think he flubbed it. It was too recent an event.

As for Louis's timing....he arrives, the horse shies, he dismounts, lights a match, runs inside to see to Mrs Diemshitz. Club members are told of the find and come down to see the woman. This is based on accounts from the members present. Then they send for help. I dont see that being 5 minutes, IF Louis arrived immediately at 1am, which by the sounds of his story, he didnt. He would have been a minute or 2 after the hour.

Cheers

[Wickerman]

Thanks for any help, I havent been able to find info on the dimensions.

Michael, carts came in all sizes, we don't know what type he used.

We can all guess, I would guess this type, but, who knows?



Four to five feet wide (hub to hub), maybe?

Regards, Jon S.