Diemschutz arrival

[Tom_Wescott]

Does Mortimer give two versions???

I seriously doubt she did, but the press gave two versions. One was a bit muddled and had her at her door for a half an hour, the other was more detailed and had her at her door for 10 minutes. However, the door had been opened quite a while prior to that, possibly 20 minutes, so that's likely where the half hour came from. If memory serves, she heard someone walk by prior to her going to the door. This was either Schwartz or PC Lamb (who may have been off in his timing).

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

both

Hello Mike. I think Wess indicated that the gates (plural) were open.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

kids

Hello (again) Mike. Personally, I would not put much weight on Kozebrodske's tale. He gets Liz's body placement hopelessly wrong. Of course, he is but a wee lad.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Fanny

Hello Tom. Personally, I'm not too keen on Mortimer's narration. It's easy to think that intermittent attention is more than it in fact is.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

width

Hello Jon. It seems that there was a dissertation (maybe a thread) where the width was discussed. iT was based on the ruts.

Cheers.
LC

[Ginger]

Question...what was the standard width of a horse drawn cart like the kind Louis would have been using? He said he was stopping to offload some goods that didnt sell at the market.

It depends on what was meant by 'pony cart'. If it was a two wheeled cart (a chaise or dog-cart), with a small pony, those can sometimes be quite narrow, only 40 inches or so, which would just fit through a single door. Since he was selling jewelry, I'd imagine his stock probably fit in a smallish case, so that might have been what he had. Google on 'pony cart track width', and you can get some idea of the various sizes in use for different sizes of pony.

[Ginger]

Hello Jon. It seems that there was a dissertation (maybe a thread) where the width was discussed. iT was based on the ruts.

Hi Lynn. They're probably basing that on Roman track ruts. The 'classic' wheel width for a horse or pony cart is 56.5 inches, from the inside of one wheel to the inside of the other. That size was used because that was the standard gauge used in the Roman Empire, and up until the industrial revolution Roman roads were still the best existing throughout much of Europe for long distance travel. By Victorian times that wasn't true any longer, and to some degree hadn't been true since the fall of the Empire for carts expected to stay in town. By 1888, and especially in cities, there was no real 'standard width' in use anymore.

[sleekviper]

Thanks Tom! Thought that there was a bit of a problem.

[Michael W Richards]

Thanks for the replies folks.

I do see that Wess indicated that the gate(s) were open Lynn, as did Louis, I had thought there was a report that when the police arrived only the right side was open. Ill look for that reference. Although I did find one reference from Louis that he passed through the "gate", in The Star on Monday the 1st.

Just wondering.

Cheers

[c.d.]

Hello CD. I think that is what happened. But as the RESULT of a bit of deliberation.

No big deal, really.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I just don't see the need for a made up story. If there had been no previous murders or if Liz had not been a prostitute I might be a little more inclined to see the wisdom of such a move. But here you have a prostitute killed with her throat cut like the earlier murders in a dark yard where a prostitute might conduct her business. The club then cooperates with the police as if they had nothing to hide.

Now if they made up a story, how did that come about? Was a poll taken by all members? Was everybody in absolute agreement on this? Were all members informed as to what the story would be? All you need is two members telling different stories or Schwartz getting tripped up in his story to make the police suspicious. Plus Schwartz could find himself in the middle of a murder investigation charged with giving false information to the police. Would he really want to chance that if the Club was completely innocent in all of this?

Again, I think the best course of action for the Club was to cooperate fully with the police rather than having a hastily made plan backfire on them.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

stories

Hello CD. Thanks.

Concerning my views about Liz qua prostitute, I'm sure stating them yet another time would bore you.

"Now if they made up a story, how did that come about? Was a poll taken by all members?"

I would suppose upper echelon only. People like Wess, Eagle and Dimshits.

"Was everybody in absolute agreement on this?"

No, else they would have done a better job of it.

"Were all members informed as to what the story would be?"

Doubtful.

"All you need is two members telling different stories or Schwartz getting tripped up in his story to make the police suspicious."

Indeed. But many members and many of the public told different stories.

"Plus Schwartz could find himself in the middle of a murder investigation charged with giving false information to the police."

Not so. All he need do is say that there was a translation error.

"Would he really want to chance that if the Club was completely innocent in all of this?"

There was no risk.

"Again, I think the best course of action for the Club was to cooperate fully with the police rather than having a hastily made plan backfire on them."

Agreed. They pretty much did that. Even the Schwartz story was not related within a few days after.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hi Lynn. They're probably basing that on Roman track ruts. The 'classic' wheel width for a horse or pony cart is 56.5 inches, from the inside of one wheel to the inside of the other. That size was used because that was the standard gauge used in the Roman Empire, and up until the industrial revolution Roman roads were still the best existing throughout much of Europe for long distance travel. By Victorian times that wasn't true any longer, and to some degree hadn't been true since the fall of the Empire for carts expected to stay in town. By 1888, and especially in cities, there was no real 'standard width' in use anymore.

Hi Ginger.
So you arrived at the same conclusion, ...we would have to guess.
You just took the scenic route

Best Wishes, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. It seems that there was a dissertation (maybe a thread) where the width was discussed. iT was based on the ruts.

Cheers.
LC

'We' know the width of the ruts in Dutfield's Yard?

[Wickerman]

Again, I think the best course of action for the Club was to cooperate fully with the police rather than having a hastily made plan backfire on them.

There is no reason to suggest otherwise.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

I would suppose upper echelon only. People like Wess, Eagle and Dimshits.

Hi Lynn.
Is there really a benefit to involving the club in this subterfuge?

Regards, Jon S.