Diemschutz arrival

[harry]

Lynn,
Why a golfer chooses daylight,is to observe where he would like to hit a ball.Why a killer,who chooses to cut throats,might like to wait till his vission allows it,is to obtain the same chance of cutting where he intended.Both might be a little out.

[Tom_Wescott]

I'm still trying to figure out Rob's thesis about a club member or attendee.

What are you having trouble with? To my knowledge, Rob (Clack) simply suggested that a clubman killed Stride, and he presumably based this upon the fact that she was killed next to the club, and the fact that such organizations attracted all sorts of desperate folk. Add to this the fact that the ale was flowing freely that night, and Stride would likely have been an unwanted element, and I see it as a perfectly plausible scenario. If Rob has a deeper thesis, or suspect of any kind, related to his idea of a clubman killer, then he's kept it to himself.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Spring heeled Jim]

Well firstly hello everyone this is my first ever post on here and I must say what a fascinating thread, as most are.

I am in comparison to most people here a complete newcomer to the facts and conjecture surrounding the events in whitechapel during the autumn of 1888. But I like to think that having a mind free from preconceived notions or the latest theories helps me to look at the facts from a fresh perspective?

The thing that strikes me about this particular incident is if it was a killing that was not premeditated, for example an argument gone wrong or fit of rage then why was the killer armed with a knife capable of inflicting such a wound and why would they not just stab? I find the idea or someone losing their temper then strangling someone plausible but to then produce a knife and cut their throat is just too much of a stretch for me.

How many men in the east end routinely carried a weapon capable of inflicting such a wound? How many men would then lose their temper and rather than stab decide to strangle, assuming thats what happened and in my mind it is, THEN casually produce a knife and cut a throat?

If it was premeditated, and I think the killing was, then in my mind either

1. It was a killer who killed her simply to satisfy a need to kill/mutilate. The fact there were no mutilations reinforces the interrupted theory in my mind.

2. Someone who she knew wanted to kill Stride for some other reason and decided that arranging to meet her in a decidedly dicey location would be the best way to go about doing it? Hmmmm

Anyhow great forum and some opinion on what I have posted would be much appreciated. Yes I am an insomniac!

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Jim,

Many, many, many east end men carried knives, although to be fair, it was often for purposes of work. But also protection. Of course, very few would be inclined to just pull it out and slice a woman, but these things do happen. What makes Stride stand out (aside from the timing with Eddowes murder) is that it was near pitch black in that side yard and he was able to kill her with no nicks or 'false starts'. He knew what he was doing, and there's no evidence of it having been a domestic crime. No evidence she knew her killer. And no evidence of a struggle. While some people, such as Garry Wroe, genuinely believe Stride was not a Ripper victim, many seem to like counting her out just because it's cool or makes them feel 'cutting edge', but the weight of the evidence in 1888 led the investigators to conclude she was a Ripper victim. And while it's certainly possible that she was not, that evidence hasn't changed and it still points predominantly to the same conclusion. However, it's also possible that she was killed by a different man than was Eddowes, and the two were working in tandem.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Spring heeled Jim]

Hi Tom thanks a lot for the reply,

The number of people you suggest to carry knives is interesting but would that be the case at such a time in the evening/morning if carrying them was work related? And in the wake of the previous killings would men still casually carry knives or make sure they left them at work/home for fear of being a suspect?


I like to think the points I made are valid ones. I can't see why people would think someone other than JTR would subdue via the neck, I think that's the best description I can think of given what I have read about the case, THEN produce a knife and cut a throat? If it was a random act of violence why no stabbing and why the apparent strangulation then knife wound?

And if premeditated and not JTR then why such a dicey location?

I think he was uninterrupted to answer to question posed at the start of this thread

[Fisherman]

Spring heeled Jim:

" I like to think that having a mind free from preconceived notions or the latest theories helps me to look at the facts from a fresh perspective?"

Enjoy it while it lasts - all five minutes of it.

"many seem to like counting her out just because it's cool" (Writer: Tom Wescott)

See what I mean?

The best,
Fisherman

[Spring heeled Jim]

Thanks for the reply Fisherman,

I have no intention of doing anything other than relying upon the established facts when it comes to any opinions I form but that won,t stop me being intrigued by the various theories, ideas conjecture etc

But what do you think with regards my points relating to Strides killer? Yes I am convinced the killer was interrupted in some way so couldn't proceed with mutilation. Who interrupted/disturbed the killer we will never know.

Just my opinion but I cant square the known information about the manner in which the murder took place with anything other than a premeditated killing. What I mean by premeditated is that someone knew they were going to kill that evening. If they knew Stride planned to kill her and orchestrated the situation why choose that location? Or the other option they simply went out that evening with the intention to kill someone they may have ended up in such a risky scenario.

I hope I am making sense

[Monty]

Theres no evidence to suggest he was interrupted, so to state you have a fresh open mind isnt entirely correct is it Spring heeled Jim? ;-)

Monty

[Fisherman]

S P Jim:

"what do you think with regards my points relating to Strides killer?"

You should know, Jim, that I have spoken up for years about the possibility that Jack was NOT a Ripper victim, whereas I now propose a suspect that offers a good reason geographically to accept Stride as Jackīs after all.

Having positioned myself, letīs look at your post!

"The thing that strikes me about this particular incident is if it was a killing that was not premeditated, for example an argument gone wrong or fit of rage then why was the killer armed with a knife capable of inflicting such a wound and why would they not just stab? I find the idea or someone losing their temper then strangling someone plausible but to then produce a knife and cut their throat is just too much of a stretch for me."

Hm. Knifes were common, so that is no problem. And you will find that history is crammed with people killed with no premeditation but with a cut throat just the same.
Today, a cut throat seems a very iconic fashion to kill, if you will. But back then, it was not uncommon at all. Even suicides were carried out by means of the candidate cutting his/her own throat. the medico Phillips, looking at Stride, told the inquest that he had seen more severe cuts in suicides than the one Stride had suffered!

"How many men in the east end routinely carried a weapon capable of inflicting such a wound?"

Thousands and thousands of them.

"How many men would then lose their temper and rather than stab decide to strangle, assuming thats what happened and in my mind it is, THEN casually produce a knife and cut a throat?"

Canīt say. But I CAN say that Stride did not have any signs of strangulation about her person.

"If it was premeditated, and I think the killing was, then in my mind either

1. It was a killer who killed her simply to satisfy a need to kill/mutilate. The fact there were no mutilations reinforces the interrupted theory in my mind.

2. Someone who she knew wanted to kill Stride for some other reason and decided that arranging to meet her in a decidedly dicey location would be the best way to go about doing it?"

If it was premeditated, then yes - he was either a guy who liked his killing or who wanted Stride dead - or a combo of both. That pretty much fills the cup to the brim.

... but it leaves a NOT premeditated scenario untouched upon.

The best,
Fisherman

[Spring heeled Jim]

Thanks again for the replys people.

Monty when I said a fresh open mind I meant I have no real preformed ideas or prejudices regarding anything that happened more that I have started to form my own opinions which I like to think although obviously far from original are actually my own and valid. Possibly

I am a rank amateur regarding the case yes but if the killing was not premeditated why the nature of the death? I know people will argue that the only concrete fact is there was a knife wound to the throat and thats that but surely given the crime scene and body there is a strong possibility that Stride was subdued via her neck and then had her front cut on or very near to the ground. Is that much accepted? Id love to know peoples opinion on those simple suggestions?

And IF she was subdued via her neck and the sole objective was to kill why not simply continue to apply force to her neck? To my mind anyway if I lost my temper or flew into a rage I would simply continue any attack in the same fashion in which I had started it eg strangulation as it would fulfill my aim I can't imagine stopping and producing a weapon.

I know people will say there is NO evidence of her being subdued via her neck but surely she didn't have her throat cut standing up? The evidence suggests this did not happen so she must have been subdued somehow?

Again great forum people and apologies for any ignorance on my part

[Monty]

Hi Spring Heeled Jim,

I was, in my crude and clumsey way, making a point which applies to us all, myself included.

That is we are all prejudiced. Its human nature. No one on this planet can state their mind is truly open, not even Phil Carter.

My apologies for making my point with you as the 'target'. It was unfair of me.

By the way, you raise some good questions. I feel in was more a manipulation, a pulling of Stride via her scarf into position than a strangling.

Monty

[Spring heeled Jim]

I agree totally monty even just hearing the name JTR and joining this forum is going to have some affect however small on the way I/you conceive things regarding the case.

However I am sure I have read somewhere on here recently a statement regarding the manner in which Stride was cut and the officials/dr's opinions on her positioning when the neck wound happened hence my surmising she was subdued first then cut which in my mind does not tally with a random rage/anger attack. It could but not to my mind.

I feel that interruption is a very valid theory although interruption by whom is where things get a LOT more shaky but by all probability I personally think if interruption parse is attributable to anyone its Dimshit's horses feet. I am sure a casebooker has his horses name

[Fisherman]

S P Jim:

"I am sure a casebooker has his horses name "

"Pickfordīs pride". No, wait, that was the OTHER horse...

Seriously, though, I have never heard the true name of Deimschitzīs pony!

The best,
Fisherman

[Spring heeled Jim]

Fisherman I know there is an amazing capacity for ripperologists to source information but the name of this pony would impress me a lot lol Even if its hardly going to solve the case!

My point was I think the idea of the killer looking up to to see a pony in front of him is absurd I am sure he would have heard it approaching over cobbles long before it arrived at the yard entrance. So interrupted may be the wrong term to use alerted to the approach of someone is how I would word it.

And in my mind relating to the kiling itself I feel that whoever subdued her would have used two hands. Do people agree she was subdued prior to the neck cut? And if yes that this in all likelyhood required the killer to use two hands?

[miakaal4]

The conjecture around what Liz was doing hanging around at that time of night etc is very interesting, however it could get out of hand. The flower and sweet smelling breath could indeed be telling us that she was waiting for someone.
Was this a men only place by the way?
But her appearence could also mean that she wanted to attract a customer, and was waiting outside the club because she knew lots of half drunk dudes would be coming out, feeling the itch.