Diemschutz arrival

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby.

"Has anyone considered the possibility that Stride's throat cut was not as deep as the others because, unlike the others she was not unconscious and lying on the ground when her throat was cut?"

Well, both Blackwell and I have. (See my re-enactment.)

"As in- she was awake and upright when her throat was cut. . ."

Not BOLT upright--no sign of that. But falling towards the ground.

". . . which accords with what Schwartz saw?"

Wasn't aware that Schwartz saw the throat cutting.

Cheers.
LC

He might have and not even known it.

[lynn cates]

position

Hello Jon. How do you think Liz's head was positioned when she was cut?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

scream

Hello Abby. Thanks.

"He might have and not even known it."

But if so, how could she scream?

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

[QUOTE=Wickerman;241917]Hi Abby.

So you don't think that the lack of blood over her left shoulder and down her left side are sufficient indications that Stride was not on her feet when her throat was cut?

Regards, Jon S.[/QUO

Hi Wick
No.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. How do you think Liz's head was positioned when she was cut?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.

How her head was positioned?

What do you mean, looking forward, or to her left, or right?

Why do you ask?

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

close to ground

Hello Jon. I was asking because, although I think she was standing, yet her head would have been close to the ground.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. I was asking because, although I think she was standing, yet her head would have been close to the ground.

Cheers.
LC

Hmm, ok, well given that the knot (bow) of her scarf was pulled tight on her left side I envisage her attacker standing behind her to her left and takes both tail ends of her scarf in his hands and pulls tight.
Stride is, I suspect, facing the clubhouse wall.

Her legs collapse and she slumps to her left, he lets go of the scarf and pulls a knife stabbing underneath her neck on her left side and rips up towards himself. She is almost horizontal at this point. He probably held her face with his left hand.
Medical opinion appears conclusive she was on her side when her throat was cut.

Why she did not drop the cachous will be the eternal problem.

I'd like to know why Dr. Phillips calls her scarf a handkerchief, but then a neckerchief. Blackwell calls it a scarf.
I picture a scarf having tails perhaps long enough for a killer to grab and pull tight, yet a handkerchief suggests something smaller not suitable for grabbing.
If Phillips is correct and it was a small neckerchief/handkerchief then I don't see how it could be used to choke her.
This difference may only be the recorder's error.

Regards, Jon S.

[harry]

Why didn't Mrs Mortimer hear the sounds of a quarrel which Scwhartz says occured after he had crossed the road and passed Stride and the person he had been following,and who were then at the entrance of Duttfield Yard.Would Stride have raised her voice against BS after what is alledged to have happened?.I think so.I believe most women would.Here I believe Schwartz to again be telling the truth,and if Stride was raising her voice,she was hardly likely having her throat cut at the same time,or allowing herself near enough to receive further punishment.

[Tom_Wescott]

First off what Brown saw was a woman and man at the corner, he thought that the woman was the same he saw in the mortuary. But as has been said, he saw nothing of color on either person, Liz quite clearly had both white and red on her breast. We know that a young couple were in the immediate area. He also says he saw that at 12:45, Israel says he saw Liz and BSM in front of the gates at 12:45, so no, both times and sightings cannot be correct. BSM grabs her, she doesnt stop him, and Fanny not only sees none of what Israel said happened but she heard none of it as well. Though she could hear simple bootsteps when not at her door.

Fannys statements, substantiated by the fact she mentions Goldstein days before he even acknowledges that he passed by at that time, and the young couple, likely also seen by Brown, add up to a quiet time in front of the gates and on the street from after the time the PC left, she never saw anyone or heard anyone in front of the gates, she saw someone pass them.

Im beginning to understand why this seems so hard to grasp for some people when the "facts" are continually misrepresented.

You’ve misrepresented a few facts yourself just in these three paragraphs. For starters, Brown’s man’s body was probably blocking his view of the flower on her chest, or Brown simply paid more attention to other details. You can’t retain everything. Secondly…and this is the third time on this thread alone I’ve pointed this out…there was no young couple in the area at that time…and third, Brown did not say he saw this at 12:45am, he said he estimated 12:45. And Fanny could hear footsteps because they were right outside her door, whereas the yell of ‘Lipski’ occurred in the vicinity of the club house where music and singing was pouring out the windows. And of course she didn’t see what Schwartz saw since she had not come to her door yet. Schwartz didn’t see her either.

She is one of the reasons that I cannot believe Schwartz's story, she bolted out to Dutfields Yard as soon as she heard the commotion of the body being found, yet she didn't hear a man yell Lipski, or hear a woman scream twice, even if it was softly.... right outside her door?

Hi Garza, see my reply to Mike above. These events did not happen outside her door, they happened outside the door of a house with music and singing pouring out the windows. A single cry of ‘Lipski’ would have meant nothing to Fanny.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

scenario

Hello Jon. Thanks.

“Hmm, ok, well given that the knot (bow) of her scarf was pulled tight on her left side I envisage her attacker standing behind her to her left and takes both tail ends of her scarf in his hands and pulls tight.
Stride is, I suspect, facing the clubhouse wall.”

Very well. But, given the position of Liz’s body, she was facing east when attacked. If her attacker was to her left, he would have been next the wall.

What about the attacker walking her OUT of the yard. He is to her right and slightly behind. His left arm is around her neck, or possibly on her left shoulder. She feels comfortable with him and pauses to take a cashou. As she reaches into her pocket with her left hand, she inclines slightly to the left. It is then that he grabs the end of her scarf with the left hand which was around her/on her shoulder. (I envision a slip knot here just as my wife uses for HER scarf.) The scarf tightens and the knot moves to the left. Liz is thrown off balance and rotates left. The tightening of the scarf causes her hand to clench and so the cachous become fixed firmly between her thumb and forefinger. His right hand produces the knife and, whist falling, Liz has her throat cut, neck directly above ground (say, 2-3 feet) and pointing downward. He then allows her body to be lain down.

“Her legs collapse and she slumps to her left, he lets go of the scarf and pulls a knife stabbing underneath her neck on her left side and rips up towards himself. She is almost horizontal at this point. He probably held her face with his left hand.”

All looks good here EXCEPT I believe he was still pulling the scarf whilst cutting. Hence, the frayed scarf.

“Medical opinion appears conclusive she was on her side when her throat was cut.”

Precisely.

“Why she did not drop the cachous will be the eternal problem.”

In my repeated experiments with this (see re-enactment) there was no problem. My wife invariably held onto the tissue with the match tips.

“I'd like to know why Dr. Phillips calls her scarf a handkerchief, but then a neckerchief. Blackwell calls it a scarf.”

Terminological, I should think.

“I picture a scarf having tails perhaps long enough for a killer to grab and pull tight, yet a handkerchief suggests something smaller not suitable for grabbing.”

Precisely. A small handkerchief would not admit of tails.

“If Phillips is correct and it was a small neckerchief/handkerchief then I don't see how it could be used to choke her.
This difference may only be the recorder's error.”

Well, choking is a bit strong. Note that the purported sequence last no more that 2-3 seconds—as Dr. Blackwell suggested.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

We will disagree on many other matters, but not on this, Lynn. I think you are very close to the truth here. The point about the scarf is an important one; it is nigh on impossible to cut cloth without stretching it hard first, so yes, the killer cut as he pulled.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Christer. Thank you very much for that. You are most kind.

Cheers.
LC

[Garry Wroe]

You're creating a circular argument here, which I suppose is necessary in order to argue for her to be excluded from the canon because of her neck wound.

I’m not dealing in circularity, Tom, and as you well know my scepticism with regard to Stride goes way beyond the nature of her neck wound.

I certainly never stated Stride was 'pulled forward' by her scarf. I'm not even sure I can imagine how that would be played out.

What you said, Tom, was: ‘He had to use his free hand to pull the scarf up and raise her neck from the rocks, instead of using it to provide the necessary resistance to get a deep cut.’ If so, the killer either placed a hand between the scarf and Stride’s neck, or he grasped the trailing ends of the scarf in order to elevate the head. But neither scenario accords with the known evidence. Whereas the former would have resulted in bruising to the neck, the latter would have pulled the knot to the area of the throat. So I ask again: where is the evidence that the killer elevated Stride’s head to facilitate the throat cutting process?

As for the jagged stones that comprised the makeshift gutter over which Stride's neck was lying, there's ample evidence of all this.

Then please, Tom, provide it.

No offense to anyone present, but I'm always shocked at how the line of people who show up to pronounce me wrong don't seem to know even the most basic facts about the circumstance of the murder.

On the subject of basic facts, Tom, are you absolutely certain that Stride’s body was not moved after her throat was cut? If it was, her head may not have been positioned directly above the ‘makeshift gutter’ during the throat cutting process. If it wasn’t, the killer inflicted the neck wound whilst Stride was lying on her side – curious indeed given that Jack the Ripper consistently cut his victims’ throats whilst they lay in a supine position.

The difference in Stride's neck wound is attributable to the unique circumstances presented by her neckwear, positioning, and the haste at which the killer was working.

Positioning and haste? Sorry, Tom, but you’ve lost me there. And, as I’ve already said, the scarves or neckerchiefs worn by the other victims posed no problem for the Ripper. None whatsoever. So why the difficulty with Stride?

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby. Thanks.

"He might have and not even known it."

But if so, how could she scream?

Cheers.
LC

That could explain the not very loudly bit.

[miakaal4]

Regarding Louis Diemshutz,

The more I read about the events as Diemshutz tells it, the more I wonder if he is being honest.
He spends all day working, or all afternoon and evening. Then returns from Sydenham at 12.30-01.00am. Its cold, he is tired, he wants to get his wares safe so he can stable the horse. Then he turns into the yard, the horse will not enter. he see's something in the way; prods it, gets down and has a closer look, lights a quick match and sees it is a woman. It might even be his wife!? And what does he do? He leaves his wares and the woman, and goes into the building! How does that make sense, unless he also saw someone in the shadow? Did he bolt inside, his bottle (courage) gone? I would drag whoever it was out of the way, drive in, and then reinvestigate the woman or call for help. Isn't that more likely? Could it be he was ashamed to admit that he knew the killer was there but he was afraid to confront him? Any thoughts?