The Schwartz/BS Man situation - My opinion only

[NotBlamedForNothing]

There's the 12:45 again, this time from Wess, but the 15 minute delay in finding a PC brings the times back in line (approx) with tradition. If this report is explained by the men being Diemshitz and Jacobs raising the alarm it just makes the discovery time earlier. It can't be Schwartz and Pipeman as they ran down Berner St. So if we have an opinion of what happened, what do we do with this evidence? If more evidence can be found to support it then maybe it could become a theory, but I am not yet persuaded.

If this misconstrued chase occurred at about 12:45, when did the Schwartz incident occur?

It would be quite a paradox if it were falsely perceived that a man was being pursued along Fairclough street at 12:45, and yet we have Schwartz, claiming to have been pursued down the street at pretty much the same time.

Could it be that knowledge of this misconstrued chase provided the template for Schwartz' account (or at least that part of it)? Yet that begs the question; why does Wess imply that 'the public' had possibly misunderstood the situation, yet still place the event after the murder? Also, why did he conveniently forget the name of the man who supposedly gave chase? Yet the most important question for the misconstrued chase theory is; why were perceptions not corrected when the two men doubled-back, and stopped to pick up Spooner? According to the Echo report, the man pursued escaped.

You're also claiming that Schwartz and Pipeman ran down Berner street, rather than Fairclough. Presumably this is because if they had run along Fairclough, Spooner would have seen them and reported it. Yet that leaves us with a curious coincidence. Spooner did report that a man 'pursued' him, as he was running to the yard - Mr Harris. He said: He came running after me.

[GBinOz]

So two questions.

Why didn't Wess mention this new employee to the police?

Arguably, Stride was seen with multiple men that night. That included kissing. If she had been courting with Parcelman, what was she up to with the others? Or was it the same man each time?

I don't know if she even was a new employee but if so, he may not have wished to volunteer a connection between the club and the victim. This is all just conjecture.

IMO the man seen by Best & Gardner, Marshall and Smith was the same man. I think Brown saw the couple mentioned by Mortimer.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

If this misconstrued chase occurred at about 12:45, when did the Schwartz incident occur?

It would be quite a paradox if it were falsely perceived that a man was being pursued along Fairclough street at 12:45, and yet we have Schwartz, claiming to have been pursued down the street at pretty much the same time.

Could it be that knowledge of this misconstrued chase provided the template for Schwartz' account (or at least that part of it)? Yet that begs the question; why does Wess imply that 'the public' had possibly misunderstood the situation, yet still place the event after the murder? Also, why did he conveniently forget the name of the man who supposedly gave chase? Yet the most important question for the misconstrued chase theory is; why were perceptions not corrected when the two men doubled-back, and stopped to pick up Spooner? According to the Echo report, the man pursued escaped.

You're also claiming that Schwartz and Pipeman ran down Berner street, rather than Fairclough. Presumably this is because if they had run along Fairclough, Spooner would have seen them and reported it. Yet that leaves us with a curious coincidence. Spooner did report that a man 'pursued' him, as he was running to the yard - Mr Harris. He said: He came running after me.

I think Wess's statement is subject to clock calibration and the persons concerned were Diemshitz and Jacobs and was well after Schwartz. A time error of 5 minutes clears up a lot of paradoxes.

I'm claiming that Schwartz and Pipeman ran down Berner street, rather than Fairclough because Schwartz said he had just stepped off the kerb when pipeman moved towards him, and he ran down to the Arches. Berner St leads to the Arches. Harris chasing Spooner would be the opposite direction to the description.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don't know if she even was a new employee but if so, he may not have wished to volunteer a connection between the club and the victim. This is all just conjecture.

Sure. Not volunteering this information would have been a risk for Wess, if Stride had told anyone where she we going that night, or that she had obtained work at the club.

IMO the man seen by Best & Gardner, Marshall and Smith was the same man. I think Brown saw the couple mentioned by Mortimer.

As you know, the female member of the couple said they had been standing there about 20 minutes, but neither heard any unusual noises. Now if you want Diemschitz home by about 12:50, there are going to be unusual noises by 12:55 at the very latest. So the 20 minutes starts at 12:35. If she were way out, it starts at 12:45. I'm sure you know what I'm getting at.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I think Wess's statement is subject to clock calibration and the persons concerned were Diemshitz and Jacobs and was well after Schwartz. A time error of 5 minutes clears up a lot of paradoxes.

Let me try again, because in #601 I stuffed up when saying...

Yet that begs the question; why does Wess imply that 'the public' had possibly misunderstood the situation, yet still place the event after the murder?

In the Echo report, the man pursued escapes. According to Schwartz, he ran from the pipe-smoker to one of the railway arches, but the pursuer did not follow that far. Both events were said to occur at about 12:45. It is the same story, with one vital difference - according to Schwartz, the event occurs pre-murder, but Wess's account occurs post-murder. So which if either account, is correct?

The misconstrued chase theory makes little sense - one of the two men does not escape, but rather they return together. According to yourself, Kozebrodsky supposedly ran close behind the other two, and then went in another direction. Was he perceived as chasing the other two? Failing that theory then, we have to question why Wess is seemingly supporting Schwartz' story, yet at the same time casting Schwartz as the murderer. Was Wess hedging bets?

I'm claiming that Schwartz and Pipeman ran down Berner street, rather than Fairclough because Schwartz said he had just stepped off the kerb when pipeman moved towards him, and he ran down to the Arches. Berner St leads to the Arches.

Like that is the only way to get to one of the arches. If he ran along Fairclough and turned into Christian street, for example, he would end up at an arch. He would also, as chance would have it, end up near the residence of one Leon Goldstein.

Harris chasing Spooner would be the opposite direction to the description.

Did Mr Harris, probably Spooner's senior, run down Spooner, or did Spooner meet Harris on the way?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Can someone please link to the Arbeier Freint nonsense as I can’t find it. If this is the source of alleged confusion of course.

And who is this ‘new employee?’

Yes, I’ll take any comments about being slow or stupid or whatever but my brain is now in the habit of going into ‘switch off’ mode when I hear this CT talk.

[GBinOz]

Can someone please link to the Arbeier Freint nonsense as I can’t find it. If this is the source of alleged confusion of course.

And who is this ‘new employee?’

Yes, I’ll take any comments about being slow or stupid or whatever but my brain is now in the habit of going into ‘switch off’ mode when I hear this CT talk.

Hi Herlock,

Don't worry about the "new employee". Andrew asked what reason had Stride for being in the gateway and I threw in a total speculation that she may have gotten a cleaning job in the club, and it went from there.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Don't worry about the "new employee". Andrew asked what reason had Stride for being in the gateway and I threw in a total speculation that she may have gotten a cleaning job in the club, and it went from there.

Cheers, George

Understood George

[Joshua Rogan]

Here is the thread on the Arbeter Fraint article. Bear in mind of course that it has been translated from the original Yiddish (there are a few notes on this in post #6)

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/victims/elizabeth-stride/6778-arbeter-fraint-s-take

[Herlock Sholmes]

Here is the thread on the Arbeter Fraint article. Bear in mind of course that it has been translated from the original Yiddish (there are a few notes on this in post #6)

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...-fraint-s-take

Thanks Joshua

[GBinOz]

Here is the thread on the Arbeter Fraint article. Bear in mind of course that it has been translated from the original Yiddish (there are a few notes on this in post #6)

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...-fraint-s-take

Thanks Joshua,

I have just scanned the actual take and, while a little dramatic, it is not too far from other accounts. Interesting that they say that it took ten minutes to locate the police. I've read accounts ranging from arriving within minutes to taking 15 minutes to arrive.

Cheers, George

[Michael W Richards]

The AF states: "The first murder occurred on Saturday night about a quarter to one". Which is precisely what many witness accounts suggest. Im sure Herlock thinks the article author is wrong too, but how many corroborative accounts can one person ignore before finally getting a "light bulb" moment?

[Herlock Sholmes]

The AF states: "The first murder occurred on Saturday night about a quarter to one". Which is precisely what many witness accounts suggest. Im sure Herlock thinks the article author is wrong too, but how many corroborative accounts can one person ignore before finally getting a "light bulb" moment?

It’s not a light bulb moment that’s needed Michael. 12.45 is an obvious error. And an error can very easily be repeated, especially in a later re-telling. Why can’t you have a light bulb moment and realise that everything points against this. We can keep going over the list of very obvious objections that you can keep ignoring but nothing will change the fact we know what happened. If you want to construct a theory based on 2 erring witnesses then that’s up to you I guess but your lack of support should have told you something by now.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Interesting that they say that it took ten minutes to locate the police. I've read accounts ranging from arriving within minutes to taking 15 minutes to arrive.

Why not take their word for it? So if Diemschitz arrived at about 1am, and Lamb 1:05, then the body was discovered -5 minutes after Diemschitz arrived.

[Guest]

i havent been following the argument, but the medical evidence points to the time of death at 0045 to 0100hrs.