The Schwartz/BS Man situation - My opinion only

[Herlock Sholmes]

The issue is not the time, but who found the body. You are obsessed with times.
Furthermore, no one has to agree to the 1am arrival time, when that is pretty much when Diemschitz arrived anyway...



Kozebrodsky told the press...

About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was.

Yet in Der Arberter Fraint, the story is quite different...

From excitement he jumped off the cart, ran through the back door into the club and raised an alarm. Immediately Comrade Gilyarovsky ran into the printing shop and editor’s office that are located in the same building as the club, but separated in the back by the yard.
There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editor’s office.
“Don’t you know that a murdered woman is lying in the yard?” Gilyarovsky breathlessly called out. At first the two comrades did not want to believe him. “What, don’t you believe me?” Gilyarovsky quickly asked: “I saw blood.”

This story contains a contradiction, which was noted long before I came to Casebook.

Mrs. Deimschitz tells yet another story. There is definitely something we are missing. Either that or there is something that you lot are missing.

I’m obsessed with times??

Im the one saying that we should keep nitpicking over them. All of the disputed points are posters talking about times.

We’re not missing anything of importance. The Arbeiter Fraint story reads like an excerpt from an early ripper book. Why would we take this seriously?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just tell me this; do you suppose both Eagle and Lave had returned to the building before Smith passed?
If it was soon before...



...then one or both would probably have seen Liz Stride and Mr Parcel, and if it were between Smith passing and Fanny going to her door, then they surely would have seen them, and possibly even seen them in the yard.
So to avoid this possibility, you would probably want both men back inside by about 12:30. Yet this causes some friction...

Lave: I came out first at half-past twelve to get a breath of fresh air. I passed out into the street, but did not see anything unusual. The district appeared to me to be quiet. I remained out until twenty minutes to one, and during that time no one came into the yard.

Apparently 12:20 to 12:30 would be a better fit to your theory, and so Lave is 10 minutes 'ahead of time'. Same as Fanny Mortimer?

As I copied early from Frank, there are around 5 different versions of what Lave said and did. One of them has him in place until 1.10 and seeing nothing which is obvious nonsense.

It’s all maybe’s. No one can know exactly when each person did what.

So it could have been, for example, Eagle at 12.33, Smith at 12.34, Mortimer on her doorstep at 12.35. Who knows with Lave?

Or Smith at 12.34, Eagle at 12.35, Mortimer at 12.36.

Or Smith at 12.33, Eagle at 12.34, Lave goes into the just after Eagle returned and stands on the pavement looking around for a minute, the goes back into the gates at 12.36 then Mortimer emerges.

We know that there was no cover up going on so no one needed to lie. Errors yes of course. With these timings you could imagine any number of scenarios involving plots but there would be no evidence for any of them except times. And again, these discrepancies are entirely to be expected. You need a good reason for a plot and not just the ability to weave one into the narrative. A cover up isn’t realistic. It just isn’t.

[GBinOz]

Yet you still accept the 4 minute thing. This leads to supposing that the steward arrived about 12:50. So that carries significant implications, which you have already posted on. Yet those posts raise important questions, some of which I have asked. So far, not many answers.

Andrew, if you explain the implications and nominate the important questions, I'll try to come up with some answers. If your talking about Letchford and his sister, IMO all guesstimated times can be taken with a grain of salt.

By the way, Frank asked some time ago for a full dissertation of your theory. I too am interested in seeing that.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

George,
Good win for England but our one day team is as good as any. We can’t say that about our test side unfortunately. I think that our fragile batting line up could be found seriously wanting against the Aussies. We rely too heavily on one batsmen of course. I’m preparing for the worst.

Hi Herlock,

I'm looking forward to agreeing with you on that last point.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Andrew, if you explain the implications and nominate the important questions, I'll try to come up with some answers.

There are a few mentioned in #558

If you can't give a good reason for Stride being in the yard unnoticed for a substantial length of time, I'm going to accuse you of supposing she was having a Rubenhold lie down.

Just kidding!

If your talking about Letchford and his sister, IMO all guesstimated times can be taken with a grain of salt.

It's not so much the time itself, that I find curious. It's that he gives a specific time, rather than a span. By mentioning a specific time, was he implying something?

By the way, Frank asked some time ago for a full dissertation of your theory. I too am interested in seeing that.

I'll write something about one particular issue soon. Something that might have wider implications.

[GBinOz]

There are a few mentioned in #558

Ok, from #558:-

Q: If you believe AH was in the club at the time, then who else in the club heard the whistle?

A: From the London Observer 6 Oct 1888:-
Neither Morris Eagle, a Russian Jew, Isaac M. Kazebrodski, a Russian Pole, or Abraham Heshburg, who were in the International Working Men's Club at the time, Barnett Kentorrich, whose house (No. 38) adjoins the yard on the south side, Mrs. Mortimer of 36, Berner-street, who was standing at her door between half-past twelve and one o' clock, Charles Letchford, who passed through the street at half-past twelve, or Mrs. Deimschitz, wife of the steward of the club, who was preparing tea and coffee in the kitchen about a dozen yards away at the time, either heard or saw anything unusual in Berner-street.

I don't know who else in the club may have heard the whistle, but I don't of anyone else who was reported as hearing it, except Harris who was at Tiger Bay.

Q: About how long was Stride in the yard, unseen by any club member, before being killed? What do you suppose she was doing in the yard?

A: I don't know when Stride was killed or if any club members saw her in the yard without reporting it. She may have been waiting for Parcelman who may have had business in the club, or have secured a cleaning job in the club and was waiting for the guests to leave......use your imagination.

Your answer "So about 12 minutes in the yard, unseen or heard by anyone."
Reply: No, just not reported as being seen or heard by anyone.


Q: If FM goes inside before the Schwartz incident, and Stride has been in the yard since before FM goes outside, then why wasn't she spotted by either Eagle or Lave? Or are Eagle and Lave back inside before Smith passes?

A: Yes.

The subject of Goldstein is, as you know, a thread of its own.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Q: If you believe AH was in the club at the time, then who else in the club heard the whistle?

A: From the London Observer 6 Oct 1888:-
Neither Morris Eagle, a Russian Jew, Isaac M. Kazebrodski, a Russian Pole, or Abraham Heshburg, who were in the International Working Men's Club at the time, Barnett Kentorrich, whose house (No. 38) adjoins the yard on the south side, Mrs. Mortimer of 36, Berner-street, who was standing at her door between half-past twelve and one o' clock, Charles Letchford, who passed through the street at half-past twelve, or Mrs. Deimschitz, wife of the steward of the club, who was preparing tea and coffee in the kitchen about a dozen yards away at the time, either heard or saw anything unusual in Berner-street.

So let's contrast with the Irish Times report:

In the course of an interview with a witness shortly after 6 o'clock this morning Abraham Heshberg, a young fellow, living at 20 Berner street, said- "I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to 1 o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter in the gateway. Two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short dark young woman lying on the ground, with a gash between 4 and 5 inches long in her throat. I should think she was 25 to 28 years of age. Her head was towards the north wall, against which she was lying. She had a black dress on, with a bunch of flowers pinned on the breast. In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous. The body was not found by Koster, but by a man whose name I do not know, a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market. He thought it was his wife at first, but when he found her safe at home he got a candle and found this woman. He never touched it till the doctor had been sent for. The little gate is always open, or at all events unfastened, but I don't think the yard is one which is used by loose women. There are some stables in there - Messrs Duncan, Woollatt, and Cade I believe - and there is a place to which a lot of girls take home sacks which they have been engaged in making. None of these would be there though after about 1 o'clock on Saturday afternoon. None of us recognised the woman. I don't think she belongs to this neighbourhood. She was dressed very respectably. There seemed to be no wounds on the body About the club? Oh, yes, it would be open till 2 or 3 this morning. I suppose it is a Socialist club, and there are generally rows there. Both men and women go there. They have demonstrations up there, and concerts, for which they have a stage and plane. There was a row there last Sunday night. It went on till about 2 in the morning, and in the end two people were arrested."

The impression I get from this is that AH was not a club member, and on hearing the whistle, he came down from 20 Berner street. So either the ELO report is in error, or Herschburg was not being completely truthful. Do you find it a little bit odd that he claims the body was not found by Koster, a man he appears to know of, but rather by Diemschitz - a man and name unfamiliar to him? Also, the ELO report mentions Eagle, Kozebrodsky, and Herschburg. In the Times, we get:

... according to one account a lad first made the discovery and gave information to a man named Costa, who proceeded to the spot, where almost immediately afterwards a constable arrived.

A lad of 17 years, perchance? Now here is Eagle at the inquest, Times Oct 2:

I had been there about 20 minutes, when a member named Gilleman came upstairs and said, "There is a dead woman lying in the yard." I went down in a second, and struck a match. I could then see a woman lying on the ground, near the gateway, and in a pool of blood. Her feet were about six or seven feet from the gate, and she was lying by the side of the club wall, her head being towards the yard. Another member, named Isaac, was with me at the time.

So where is Diemschitz at this point? I'll tell you where; driving along Commercial Road, about to turn into Berner street.

Q: About how long was Stride in the yard, unseen by any club member, before being killed? What do you suppose she was doing in the yard?

A: I don't know when Stride was killed or if any club members saw her in the yard without reporting it. She may have been waiting for Parcelman who may have had business in the club, or have secured a cleaning job in the club and was waiting for the guests to leave......use your imagination.

Your answer "So about 12 minutes in the yard, unseen or heard by anyone."
Reply: No, just not reported as being seen or heard by anyone.

Herschburg said that no one recognised the woman. That would be odd if she had a cleaning job at the club.

Q: If FM goes inside before the Schwartz incident, and Stride has been in the yard since before FM goes outside, then why wasn't she spotted by either Eagle or Lave? Or are Eagle and Lave back inside before Smith passes?

A: Yes.

If Smith really was last on Berner street in the 12:30-35 region, and we know that he sees Stride, then we could pretty much say that Stride was on Berner street at about 12:30.

Charles Letchford, living at 30, Berners-street says: "I passed through the street at half-past 12, and everything seemed to me to be going on as usual..."

Do you suppose he might have been carrying a parcel done up in newspaper?

[GBinOz]

I had been there about 20 minutes, when a member named Gilleman came upstairs and said, "There is a dead woman lying in the yard." I went down in a second, and struck a match. I could then see a woman lying on the ground, near the gateway, and in a pool of blood. Her feet were about six or seven feet from the gate, and she was lying by the side of the club wall, her head being towards the yard. Another member, named Isaac, was with me at the time.

So where is Diemschitz at this point? I'll tell you where; driving along Commercial Road, about to turn into Berner street.

Herschburg said that no one recognised the woman. That would be odd if she had a cleaning job at the club.

If Smith really was last on Berner street in the 12:30-35 region, and we know that he sees Stride, then we could pretty much say that Stride was on Berner street at about 12:30.

Charles Letchford, living at 30, Berners-street says: "I passed through the street at half-past 12, and everything seemed to me to be going on as usual..."

Do you suppose he might have been carrying a parcel done up in newspaper?

Hi Andrew,

There many conflicting reports, and we'll probably never get to know which are true.

Where was Diemshitz? This is just after your Times quote:-
The CORONER. - Did you see if her clothes were disturbed?
Witness. - I could not say. When I got outside I saw Jacobs and another going for the police in the direction of Fairclough-street

Diemshitz was the "another". Koze followed them but turned off at Batty St to run into Eagle on Commercial Road. You do realise that Isaac, Isaacs and Kozebrodsky were the same person?

Herschburg said that no one recognised the woman. That would be odd if she had a cleaning job at the club.
No, I don't think so, she would have been hired by Wess(West) and he wasn't there.

I certainly don't think that Letchford was Parcelman.

I hope that wasn't your long awaited theory?

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Koze followed them but turned off at Batty St to run into Eagle on Commercial Road.

How do you know that? This is Eagle in the MA:

I struck a light and saw her covered in blood. I could not look at her long, so I ran for the police. Another man went for them at the same time. We could not find one at first, but when we got to the corner of Grove-street, Commercial-road, I found two constables, and I told them there was a woman murdered in Berner-street.

Who ran with him at the same time?

You do realise that Isaac, Isaacs and Kozebrodsky were the same person?

I use the names Isaacs and Kozebrodsky interchangeably, all the time.

Herschburg said that no one recognised the woman. That would be odd if she had a cleaning job at the club.
No, I don't think so, she would have been hired by Wess(West) and he wasn't there.

Diemschitz lived at the club. Do you suppose he had never laid eyes on the cleaning lady?

I certainly don't think that Letchford was Parcelman.

I hope that wasn't your long awaited theory?

Did I miss by 2 minutes? I thought we weren't supposed to deal with periods that short.

[GBinOz]

How do you know that? This is Eagle in the MA:

I struck a light and saw her covered in blood. I could not look at her long, so I ran for the police. Another man went for them at the same time. We could not find one at first, but when we got to the corner of Grove-street, Commercial-road, I found two constables, and I told them there was a woman murdered in Berner-street.

Who ran with him at the same time?

Diemschitz lived at the club. Do you suppose he had never laid eyes on the cleaning lady?



Did I miss by 2 minutes? I thought we weren't supposed to deal with periods that short.

Hi Andrew,

You have pointed to an interesting point. Most think that Koze left at the same time as Eagle but into Fairclough, then up Batty to Commercial Rd and the two then kept searching from there. But some accounts read like there was a possibilty that Koze returned the yard and Eagle and he departed from there to Commercial Rd. In the account you quote they locate both police at Grove St fixed point which doesn't match other accounts, particularly by Lamb. All very annoying.

Maybe it was her first time there as a cleaner. She would have been over dressed but she had just been courting with Parcelman. Hey, it was just a speculative suggestion after all.

I don't understand your last comment.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

You’re tying yourselves up in knots for absolutely no reason because we know what happened. We just can’t pin exact times to individual actions. The bottom line is Diemschutz who saw a clock. I’ll repeat that…he saw a clock. Could the clock have been a bit out? Yes. Might Lamb have used another clock to take his times by (perhaps experience told him that the other clock was unreliable?) So yes there’s an element of doubt about what the exact time was when he saw the clock but it’s less likely that it was 15 minutes out which it would have to have been if Koz and Hoschberg were correct. Or 12.30 if one version of Spooner was correct.

So even if Diemschutz clock was 2 or 3 minutes out what difference does it make? Is it believable that Koz and Hoschberg were in the yard with the body at 12.45 and it wasn’t until 20-25 minutes later that a Constable arrived at Blackwell’s door a minute or so away (I’ll stand correcting on the distance if I’m misremembering what Frank said) Is it likely then that Diemschutz clock was 20 minutes out?

And I’ll return to the much loved Fanny. If Diemschutz discovered the body just before 12.45 (as per Koz and Hosch) why did Fanny not see him if she went onto her doorstep at 12.45? I’m not the one picking and choosing here, I’m the one trying to weigh things up reasonably.

We need to stop the pointless nitpicking and accept that we know what happened. No one lied.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

You have pointed to an interesting point. Most think that Koze left at the same time as Eagle but into Fairclough, then up Batty to Commercial Rd and the two then kept searching from there. But some accounts read like there was a possibilty that Koze returned the yard and Eagle and he departed from there to Commercial Rd. In the account you quote they locate both police at Grove St fixed point which doesn't match other accounts, particularly by Lamb. All very annoying.

Lamb said between Christian and Batty. Isn't that close enough?
Your right about Koz...

I went to look for a policeman at the direction of Diemshitz or some members of the club. I went in the direction of Grove street, and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial road, and there along with Eagle I found two officers.

So why not believe that account? One might protest that Isaac's English was poor. Fine, but as I said, if his command of English was so marginal that we cannot trust his quotes, then what was the point of him talking to the press at all? What was the motivation?

Maybe it was her first time there as a cleaner. She would have been over dressed but she had just been courting with Parcelman. Hey, it was just a speculative suggestion after all.

So two questions.

Why didn't Wess mention this new employee to the police?

Arguably, Stride was seen with multiple men that night. That included kissing. If she had been courting with Parcelman, what was she up to with the others? Or was it the same man each time?

I don't understand your last comment.

I thought you might have been implying that the times didn't match up well enough. They are pretty close, and so if Letchford was not Parcelman, there is still a good chance that he witnessed him, with Stride. Yet he does not.

The 12:30 point also marks the end of the first couples time together. They apparently did not see Stride, so if you want Smith on Berner at 12:35, she will have to arrive after the girl returns to her place, also on Berner. Cutting it fine.

[GBinOz]

You’re tying yourselves up in knots for absolutely no reason because we know what happened. We just can’t pin exact times to individual actions. The bottom line is Diemschutz who saw a clock. I’ll repeat that…he saw a clock. Could the clock have been a bit out? Yes. Might Lamb have used another clock to take his times by (perhaps experience told him that the other clock was unreliable?) So yes there’s an element of doubt about what the exact time was when he saw the clock but it’s less likely that it was 15 minutes out which it would have to have been if Koz and Hoschberg were correct. Or 12.30 if one version of Spooner was correct.

So even if Diemschutz clock was 2 or 3 minutes out what difference does it make? Is it believable that Koz and Hoschberg were in the yard with the body at 12.45 and it wasn’t until 20-25 minutes later that a Constable arrived at Blackwell’s door a minute or so away (I’ll stand correcting on the distance if I’m misremembering what Frank said) Is it likely then that Diemschutz clock was 20 minutes out?

And I’ll return to the much loved Fanny. If Diemschutz discovered the body just before 12.45 (as per Koz and Hosch) why did Fanny not see him if she went onto her doorstep at 12.45? I’m not the one picking and choosing here, I’m the one trying to weigh things up reasonably.

We need to stop the pointless nitpicking and accept that we know what happened. No one lied.

Herlock my friend, calm yourself down. You'll end up having a stroke....and then with whom will I conduct a spirited argument?

You have your opinion as to what happened. Others have theirs. Usually there are only minor differences despite the appaling lack of consistancy in the inquest reports. But sometimes there are statements that don't fit with others, such as those by Koz and Hoschberg. But the fact remains that they were reported by many journalists. Their times can't be reconciled against Johnson time of a couple of minutes past one, but they would be a lot closer if the time to find the police were disputed, such as in the report in the Echo dated 1 Oct 1888:-
In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the [two latter?] [?] up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body. Complaint is also made [?] [?] [?] there was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be [?] from Commercial-road. This charge against the police, however, requires confirmation.

There's the 12:45 again, this time from Wess, but the 15 minute delay in finding a PC brings the times back in line (approx) with tradition. If this report is explained by the men being Diemshitz and Jacobs raising the alarm it just makes the discovery time earlier. It can't be Schwartz and Pipeman as they ran down Berner St. So if we have an opinion of what happened, what do we do with this evidence? If more evidence can be found to support it then maybe it could become a theory, but I am not yet persuaded.

"The bottom line is Diemschutz who saw a clock. I'll repeat that; he saw a clock."
One problem here is that Diemshitz didn't repeat it. He said it only once, where as he said multiple times, his usual time about one o'clock. Another problem is that the Harris clock was probably part of the police time network, and his time conflicts with theirs, although they may have been applying corrections (how's that for a compromise?).

"Is it likely then that Diemschutz clock was 20 minutes out?"
McKay's treatise on Victorian clocks made it clear that it was not unusual for clocks to be 10 minutes out. If you compare a clock running 10 minutes fast with one running ten minutes slow then you have your twenty minutes. Throw in long guesstimates and you may be out by 30 minutes.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hoschberg”

“Yes; I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter. In the gateway two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short, dark young woman lying on the ground with a gash between four and five inches long in her throat. I should say she was from 25 to 28 years of age. Her head was towards the north wall, against which she was lying. She had a black dress on, with a bunch of flowers pinned on the breast. In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous. The body was found by a man whose name I do not know - a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway, where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market. He thought it was his wife at first, but when he found her safe at home he got a candle and found this woman. He never touched it till the doctors had been sent for.”

So he hears a policeman’s whistle but there’s no policeman in the yard so we know that he wasn’t talking about the occasion when Lamb blew his whistle there. So the body has already been discovered and yet a police whistle has been blown. So unless something else occurred that night and the sound travelled from some entirely unconnected incident or some police officer connected to the investigation blew his whistle?

[Herlock Sholmes]

The questions remain the same.

If Hoschberg was supposedly in the yard with the body at 12.45 why didn’t Fanny see anything?
Why didn’t Goldstein see any men in the yard when he looked toward the club?
Why did Fanny or anyone else not see Diemschutz return pre-12.45?
Why did Eagle not see Hoschberg?