Stride Bruising

[lynn cates]

method to my madness

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Had her thumb & finger(s) closed up around the paper pkg?"

Alright. We'll begin here. It was a piece of tissue containing the cachous. Can we construct any scenario with such a piece of paper accidentally lodged there? Bloody difficult.

"I don't know Lynn, the whole question is innocuous. . ."

Disagree, most vehemently.

". . . yet at the same time hard to explain."

Not necessarily. That was one of the main points behind my re-enactment. I wished to show:

1. A possible way in which she would be comfortable and take out the cachous from her pocket.

2. Hold on to them whilst having her throat cut.

Could be wrong, but all parts worked out perfectly.

"I don't see solving the riddle will get us any nearer to identifying her killer, but that's just me."

But it could explain why she was there, her circumstances, etc. Once THAT is ascertained . . .

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

behaviour

Hello Pat. Thanks.

"the result was that her fingers and thumbs clamped shut and she had great trouble using them after that.
Maybe this happened to Liz?"

Possibly. But the problem involves, "Why take them out in the first place?"

Surely not appropriate behaviour in mid-attack?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

....., it's fine to remind them that she had seen grapes.

I'm not so sure we can even believe in that. What she told a reporter was:

"....The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets."

That could easily be construed as her being told about the grapes, not that she saw them herself. Maybe its just a reporters poor choice of wording, or maybe Mortimer did not see the grapes herself at all.

[DRoy]

Jon,

I agree with you. In fact, much of Mortimer's comments in the paper seem to suggest she got info from others. She obviously spoke with Lewis as she told his story almost word for word.

All that being said though, I do believe she was one of the earliest spectators on the scene so there may be some validity behind what she personally saw. In my opinion at least at this time is that she picked the grape story up.

Cheers
DRoy

[Observer]

I'm not so sure we can even believe in that. What she told a reporter was:

"....The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets."

That could easily be construed as her being told about the grapes, not that she saw them herself. Maybe its just a reporters poor choice of wording, or maybe Mortimer did not see the grapes herself at all.

Hi Wickerman

Absolutely. Not a chance there were any grapes anywhere near Liz Stride. Although read a report where Mortimer claimed Liz had a half eaten Big Mac tucked in her dress. Those press lads, they do make you laugh do they not?

Regards

Observer

[DRoy]

Observer,

You make me laugh! Good post!

Not a chance of grapes? Bold statement. I know few believe it but it is absolutely possible. Packer may have been a liar but that doesn't mean grapes weren't possible.

Looks like we found something besides Mortimer to discuss my friend! Probably better in a different thread though.

Cheers
DRoy

[Observer]

Thanks D!

Yes wrong thread for grapes, unless the bruises were grape juice! I once championed the cause of Matt Packer. I speculated that he wasn't too fond of the police, thus he decided not to help them when he was initialy interviewed on the day following the murder. I think the press in all probabiliyt based their grape stories on Packer's statement. As you say though, another thread.

Regards

Observer

[curious]

I had to assure her that murder has been banned in all fifty states and territories.

Cheers.
LC

Hi, Lynn,
That was good for a chuckle. Doesn't the ban really stretch further than that?

curious

[Wickerman]

.... Packer may have been a liar but that doesn't mean grapes weren't possible.

Aye, but Packer didn't invent the grapes, he just claimed to have sold them.
Him lying about selling the grapes does not make them disappear.

The presence of grapes in her hand were the product of both Diemshitz and Kozebrodski together, and, Swanson mentioned the grapes in his report.

The serious question is, why should those two men claim to have seen grapes?

[Observer]

Hi Wickerman

At what point were grapes first mentioned in the press? I know there's a joke there but ignore it.

Some questions. When they searched the Yard the next day why were there no signs of any grapes, stalks pips? Why did the medical officials not mention the prescense of grapes? Spooner never mentioned seeing any grapes. And of course no trace of grape skins flesh pips were found in Liz Stride's stomach.

Regards

Observer

[DRoy]

Jon,

That's exactly what I meant and why I think the grapes existed. It's easy to dismiss the grapes if all that is considered is Packer's story(s).

Cheers
DRoy

[Observer]

So are you saying that Packer read about the grapes in the newspaper and devcided to include it in his statement to the press?

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman

At what point were grapes first mentioned in the press?

Monday morning papers, which because they go to press overnight, the accounts were taken down on Sunday.

Some questions. When they searched the Yard the next day why were there no signs of any grapes, stalks pips?

The yard was swilled down before 4:30 on Sunday morning, while it was still dark.

Why did the medical officials not mention the prescense of grapes?

In her body?
The autopsy was conducted 38 hrs after her death. Providing she spit out the skins & pips, as many (including myself) do, then her stomach acids (which do not dissipate at death) had 38 hrs to make the watery pulp unrecognizable.

Spooner never mentioned seeing any grapes.

Spooner did see an empty piece of paper in her right hand. Wouldn't the grapes have been sold in a folded paper sachet?

[Wickerman]

So are you saying that Packer read about the grapes in the newspaper and devcided to include it in his statement to the press?

He seemed to be a publicity seeker, or at least became one.

[lynn cates]

Murder, he wrote.

Hello Velma. Thanks.

Yes, murder is illegal in many places. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC